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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 2:09:43 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
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From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
This is turning in circles now. Faith and works are separate in the Bible, and therefore must be separate in our lives. "tool" implies work, so it's not the best analogy since faith and works are separate. Plus, "works" are plainly (to me) visible acts. Read James. Actually, works are not always visible. Praying is not always visible, loving is not always visible, obeying God is not always visible and our faith is not visible - still, nonetheless, it is a work.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
These are the fruits or "works'"of the Spirit. They are the results of God working in us, and among them is listed faith. Faith is the fruit that will show up in our lives because of the Spirit.
I'm looking at "works" as defined in James. I know the fruits of the spirit. You can go around labeling everything a work if you'd like, I suppose. I still believe that faith is much more a conduit for God's grace than a tool. "grace through faith", not "grace by the fashioning of faith".
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 2:13:05 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
The teachings of predetermination, I look at like this,
when it relates to Jesus, He and the Father agreed before he came to earth what he would do while here, Jesus "laid down his life, no man took it from him" "He could have called on thousands of angels to rescue him," but he was a volunteer for the position.
No one took his like, He said, "I lay it down" so before He laid it down notice that no one could kill him, they tried a few times in a mob, but it says He slipped away from them,one time walking through a crowd that picked up rocks, - - - This was miraculous I believe, he was divinely protected, and to Pilate He replied, "You have no power over my life at all, except what has (deliberately) been given you from above." meaning Pilate could not have done a thing to Him, but because of Jesus's and the Father's secret plan, that, if the princes (demonic rulers and powers) would have known it they would never have crucified our Lord.
"God is not willing for any to perish" Quote from bible,
this says it all right here, about God's will concerning all mankind, He does not will them to perish, but knows ahead of time who will accept His plan of slavation, because He is God, He is not living in time, so he knows all of history at once,
quote " knows the end before the beginning"[image][/image]
Very good post!
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 2:19:53 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: contend4christ
You believe man is created to seek God so his "nature" is to seek him.
I believe that because Acts 17:27 says so.
quote:
This is ridiculous considering the Bible says we are born sinners. Our nature is not seeking God, but sinning.
What is ridiculous is your confusion in thinking that a sinner cannot seek God. If you would take the time to grasp Acts 17:27 it notes that God created mankind to seek Him. .
So you are quite wrong to assume that being a sinner means unable to seek God.
Positive thinking works in California.
This ain't the Crystal Cathedral. 
Where are all these God seekers ?
You keep saying everyone seeks God.
All I see is an adundance of God-haters.
Abortionists, satanists, pedophiles, thieves,
homosexuals, liars, adulterers, murderers-
Need I continue...are you blind to all this ?
Where are all the people seeking God ?
These are precisely the people who need to seek God. The Bible clearly states that men seek God, just as the Bible clearly states that God does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. I'm just relaying what the Bible says, because I believe the Bible is the Word of God.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 2:26:24 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
All this ability you believe you possess is
not a (free) will, but God operating in you
according to His pleasure, by His power.
Your ability to respond, to know, to see,
to desire, to want...all given by God !
All these events and decisions that you
see as an internal resolution are not yours.
God has to give grace or we will never have it.
Grace is from God, not inherently within man.
The reason you chose God, is He chose you first.
I will not assume silence is agreement.
I do know it would be hard to disagree with this
and talk out of the other side of your mouth.
You've been silent about my last several posts, as well, so I observe.
Your "I'll have no part of it" post is just another non-argument. "My side is right and yours is wrong" is not an argument. Do you understand this?
Your idea that understanding something different from the Bible is questioning God's choice is way off, but instead seems to be yet another refusal to try and understand the things people believe.
Your post also seemed to indicate that you believe God is a bigot. Is this the case?
I get it...you won't answer the post !!!
It's a bit foreboding for an Arminian to admit.
BTW, I see you have adopted the Free tactic of saying
people lack understanding, etc. Quite unproductive.
I ask a lot of questions, as both a courtesy, and
in a spirit of clarification and obtaining post essence.
You don't need to tell me what you think I believe.
Rather then attack the man, attack the posts ! 
I didn't see a question to answer. I'd be glad to if you'd pose one for me.
I only express this understanding issue when someone assumes free will means this or that, thereby perverting my beliefs. If you assume I believe something I do not, that is a clear lack of understanding about my particular belief. This doesn't have to be taken personally. I try to clarify that understanding as best as I can. I've also tried to argue in the most courteous manner I can. If I have failed in this, I apologize.
Again, if there is a question you'd like to pose, please do so.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 2:27:38 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
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From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Confessions of an Arminian:
My sinful nature loves God because my sinful nature is righteous and good. Satan doesn't exist because I'm not deceived by him. I already know the complete truth but choose to go to hell instead of heaven because...well.. I want to suffer eternal torment. So my choice is to sin and not seek God. So Satan can't fool me because we all know the truth and can't be deceived. In their dreams. 
People love twisting what they think I believe into an abomination of what it really is. Was the sarcasm necessary, carico?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 2:29:22 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
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From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Oh, i know i 've annoyed those poor peeps to death with it, and i only started the inquisition!
I hope to see it answered.
I know what you thinking, "yeah, she should have such luck", but i'll try
We love you, it's those other guys- 
Could God make ALL men to choose wrong ?
Then is His mercy enable some to choose right ?
God has done nothing wrong. Violated nothing.
That would violate His promise to show all men mercy, would it not?
"For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:05:04 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
to rwe and mannamuncher: "GOD IS NOT WILLING FOR ANY TO PERISH" BIBLE QUOTE. This answers everything in a nutshell. If He is not willing, then he is not willing nor predepoing or pre 'disposing' either, but because He knows the end before the beginning He already knows who will respond to Him and who will not.
Hello, HelloChurch.....
I also see the Scripture for what it says.
I am firmly convinced this verse MUST give the foreknow/foreordain,
man is responsible/man has no choice, God causes everything/God doesn't cause sin
camp ALOT of .......difficulty.
Just as many of their doctrinal verses cause me some......difficulty.
This is why I live in the tension between free will and predestination.
The Bible clearly teaches both.
God is the author and perfecter of our faith<------>God is the author of free will.
Later.....
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:08:01 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
DRINK DEADLY THINGS WITHOUT IT HURTING THEM,ETC."
COMMENT: This part of the text of Mark 16 is of questionable authenticity.
QUESTION: WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING AT US???
God Bless.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:18:07 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
And right now my reading of Scripture tells me God desires men to be saved
And God's actions show otherwise...
Manna, Manna, Manna.
I am really wondering exactly who the God of your theology really is.
Please explain how think God's actions contradict his desire considering
God is our Savior, who desires all men to be saved
and to come to the knowledge of the truth,
He is patient with us, not wanting anyone to perish, but
everyone to come to repentance,
God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent.
Seeing dimly is one thing we are all afflicted with.
Join the club, Manna.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:24:27 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
"God is not willing for any to perish" Quote from bible,
this says it all right here, about God's will concerning all mankind, He does not will them to perish, but knows ahead of time who will accept His plan of slavation, because He is God, He is not living in time, so he knows all of history at once,
quote " knows the end before the beginning"[image][/image]
This is called God the curiousity-seeker...
What would man do if I did this ?
Why is man's "choice" important to God ?
And, if God already knows, what then ?
Manna -
Would you please explain this verse to me?
Jeremiah 26:19 (NASB)
"Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death?
Did he not fear the LORD and entreat the favor of the LORD,
and the LORD changed His mind about the misfortune which
He had pronounced against them?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:27:33 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Apparently, because after 500 years the debate rolls on..........
You accidently opened another can of worms...
The Reformation was a response to Catholicism,
and the dogmas and papal teaching contained therein.
The RCC believes in cooperation and compatibilism.
Nearly 100 years ago, some say by Moody, a new era...
Accept The Lord, receive, choose, man's faith, man's part.
God must, God wants to, God is obligated to, God has to.
FWIW I too reject the decisionsim and "have a better life" gospel
that is flaunted around today.
But I believe Jacob Arminius peeled off from Calvin around 500 years ago, correct?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:30:38 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
And right now my heart tells me God takes no pleasure in any man's condemnation.
Who said God does ? So, why say it ?
Oh I think there is Scripture somewhere that says it,
Can't bring it to mind right now.
Help, FG?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:31:52 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Confessions of an Arminian:
My sinful nature loves God because my sinful nature is righteous and good.
Satan doesn't exist because I'm not deceived by him. I already know the
complete truth but choose to go to hell instead of heaven because...well..
I want to suffer eternal torment. So my choice is to sin and not seek God.
So Satan can't fool me because we all know the truth and can't be deceived.
In their dreams.
I suggest you take some time off and study Arminianism, bro.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:36:49 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2370
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: contend4christ
Freewill is a tough topic because even the term is often used in so many ways.
Let's focus on the right way. Free will is merely the freedom to believe or reject the Truth that God makes evident.
And is anyone dead in trespasses and sins ?
That's an easy one.
All those who do not repent and believe remain dead in their sins.
Does anyone reject, Manna?
Why do they reject?
Who and what do they reject?
Is there any example of people who reject apart from God's decree?
Can you say "Israel".
If God would want to gather them under his wings like
chicks to the hen, does that make God an impotent hand-wringer?
In your view it must.
In my view it proves our God is love and his
desire is for all to believe.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:36:53 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
I have to balance man's response against God's sovereignty.
We all need to.
And where is the "thus saith The Lord?"
Matt 7:7, where Jesus is speaking: "Ask, and it WILL be given to you, SEEK, and you WILL find, knock, and it WILL be opened to you."
quote:
Where is this balance you speak of ?
In all the Scriptures I've been quoting from.
quote:
Jesus said, "Be balanced my children"...??? What are we balancing ?
How come it seems all you can do is mock and be sarcastic?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:38:17 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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First off there are a lot of verses I feel that destroy the Calvinistic view of limited atonement but this one popped out today to me. Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
I looked in my Greek New Testament and both of the word alls were the same word with the same meaning. So it is saying that through Adam's sin ALL came under Judgment. In the same sentence the same word ALL was used in the Justification through Jesus. How can anyone combat that? Don't say that this supports or means universalism. You have to believe/have faith in it for it take affect.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:40:43 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2390
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The Bible is clear that the Father ordained the death of Jesus Christ "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God"(Acts 2:23) yet, He still holds the men that killed Him responsible.
Since God ordained it, could Judas have actually done differently? No...that's not possible....still, it is clear from Scripture God holds him and the others responsible for their sin.
Why do you think it would be any different before and after the Cross?
Apparently, God considers the freewill of man as He also ordains what will happen. God is able to do this. How does He manage it?...no one knows - "who can know the mind of God"; but, He clearly says He does.
Sure,i dont deny that - even by allowing us to have free will God's will still is done.
I dont think it has to be or one or the other. Neither do i think giving people FW makes God less sovereign.
So I babysit those 3 rugrats today, ok(just out of kidness, they are real monsters.) If i tell them they can choose what cartoon to watch, that doesnt mean their way overides mine or i am not the boss of them anymore. Sovereighnty can include giving the subordinated the will to choose, w/t making them the boss, no?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:43:09 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 403
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Even the angels had a choice. They rebelled against God. If you think He willed that to happen, then you must believe He willed sin into existence. If you believe that then that will make God the author of evil and sin. Which would contradict what the bible says about God. Also Adam and Eve sinned did God will that to happen? Saying that God controls everyones actions just doesn't make sense. If you are forced to love someone or something, then it is not love.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:45:46 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
All this ability you believe you possess is not a (free) will
Actually, you are correct, Manna. Ability has nothing to do with the free will that the FW pov is. The only correct definition of free will is freedom of believing or rejecting Truth. That's what Romans 1 is about and what the life of Cornelius demonstrated.
quote:
Your ability to respond, to know, to see, to desire, to want...all given by God !
That's what I've been saying all along.
quote:
Grace is from God, not inherently within man. [/qujote]
You are making claims that no one is arguing against.
I cannot comprehend what doesn't exist. Sure, Adam and Eve had a freewill. Do you believe we are identical to them ?
God created mankind in His own image. You do the math!
quote:
What you believe to be a freewill, regarding your God-ward choices is God working in you.
God reveals His Truth to everyone, and each one is accountable for their own decision whether to believe or reject.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:47:54 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Apparently, because after 500 years the debate rolls on..........
You accidently opened another can of worms...
The Reformation was a response to Catholicism, and the dogmas and papal teaching contained therein.
As well, calvinism was a response from the Remonstrants!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:50:31 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: contend4christ
You believe man is created to seek God so his "nature" is to seek him.
I believe that because Acts 17:27 says so.
quote:
This is ridiculous considering the Bible says we are born sinners. Our nature is not seeking God, but sinning.
What is ridiculous is your confusion in thinking that a sinner cannot seek God. If you would take the time to grasp Acts 17:27 it notes that God created mankind to seek Him. .
So you are quite wrong to assume that being a sinner means unable to seek God.
Positive thinking works in California.
This ain't the Crystal Cathedral.
Once again, all you have is mockery and sarcasm. Can't you do better?
quote:
Where are all these God seekers ? You keep saying everyone seeks God.
Where did I say that? I didn't. I said Rom 1 tells us that God has made evident His existence to everyone. Fools and atheists don't seek God, as I've said all along, so clearly, you aren't even paying attention.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:53:05 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Your claim that because men are without excuse therefore they can and do seek God is not founded in Romans 1 and is flatly denied in Romans 3.
Yet, Acts 10 and the life of Cornelius demonstrates that unregenerate men can and do seek God. So, obviously, your understanding of Rom 3 is incorrect.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:55:35 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2390
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Oh, i know i 've annoyed those poor peeps to death with it, and i only started the inquisition!
I hope to see it answered.
I know what you thinking, "yeah, she should have such luck", but i'll try
We love you, it's those other guys-
That is easy- i love all here, C and A for we all are christian family.
But we know that.. " if you love only those who loves you...what good is that.. worldly people do the same" ..
we all should strive to learn to love all the brothers ,even those who disagree with
I know how hard that is - i confess, some Catholics are so legalistic, so nasty to God and people, so resemling the judaistic ilk that i left, that deep in my heart I fight the feelings of despising them and question their salvation. Oy vey iz mir!
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:55:44 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Let's say a smoker finally believes the health risks of smoking and decides to quit. The decision to quit was based on accepting as true the health risks. But the decision to quit is merely an action. The believing of the health facts have nothing to do with the action of stopping smoking, since there are a lot of smokers who know all the facts and still smoke. Just ask any non smoker how hard it was to stop? They had to use lots of will power. So, will power has nothing to do with believing anything, but has everything to do with carrying out actions.
I hope you can see the difference. Free will is about choosing from among options. Will power is about getting a job done.
 I am an ex-smoker !
No one quits by their own willpower.
You need to get out a little more often. I've met many unbelievers who have. Obviously, you didn't have enough will power.
However, you are only ignoring my point, aren't you. Which is: will power has zero to do with free will. They aren't related. One is about choosing from options, and the other is about getting things done.
quote:
God enabled me, strengthened, and equipped me.
God is in every nook and cranny of our lives.
Leading, guiding, protecting, directing into His will.
Do you still sin? How come?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 3:57:02 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7898
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: contend4christ
Freewill is a tough topic because even the term is often used in so many ways.
Let's focus on the right way. Free will is merely the freedom to believe or reject the Truth that God makes evident.
And is anyone dead in trespasses and sins ?
That would be all the unbelievers.
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