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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/13/2007 12:53:01 PM
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JohnWilliams
Posts: 57
Joined: 3/31/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger
As for my signature, it might do you some good to read some John Piper, or do you consider him a heretic?
I don't know John Piper, but by your signature it would seem to indicate that he believes he knows the ways of God. I would suggest that he doesn't.
Perhaps you might have been better served using a quote that requires no additional context.
(Not that I can imagine a context that could explain the quote you used)
It's an ugly and offensive quote taken at face value.
< Message edited by JohnWilliams -- 4/13/2007 12:55:24 PM >
_____________________________
God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not based on how good he is at defending his doctrine, but on how willing he is to seek out and follow the truth. ~ Ellis Skolfield.
Please visit http://www.beholdthebeast.com
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/13/2007 1:02:34 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11459
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Let's leave off the discussion of ccoppenbarger's signature. It is allowed per the TOS and is off topic in this thread.
Thanks!
Tricia
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/13/2007 1:22:12 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/24/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi Stranger,
Don’t you find it interesting that almost all of the world’s conflicts are contained in Europe and almost without fail they involve Japhetic descendant? There are a couple of expectations such as Iraq but still their involvement biblically has been continuous. Also don’t you find that it interesting the major stumbling block in world history has been the control of Jerusalem and or the elimination of the Jews? If you took away the push for Islamic domination today, the world would be a pretty safe place.
No Stranger I have to feel that the main thrust of the tribulation in the last week will be contained in the Middle East, nothing has changed.
Bob
Hi Bob,
Daniel 11 would support that Satan's forces will include Jerusalem, after all, it would be pretty hard to have the whole world accept him as God is he doesn't control that particular piece of ground. Even when they finally do control it it doesn't make that place theirs for very long and it is taken away with little effort on Christ's part. Show me how that doesn't apply today, Israel wants total control 'as a sign that they are God's people'.
The tendency to paint Islam as being 'the antichrist' also, not so conveniently, also paints those against Islam as being 'righteous'. A wayward Christian or a 'blind' Jew is as much as an 'antichrist' as anybody could possibly be, perhaps even more so. The more a person knows about God and Jesus the more is expected of them in adherence to the Law. That Law is meant to be followed in dealing with all people, not just those of the same faith.
Lu:12:47:
And that servant,
which knew his lord's will,
and prepared not himself,
neither did according to his will,
shall be beaten with many stripes.
Lu:12:48:
But he that knew not,
and did commit things worthy of stripes,
shall be beaten with few stripes.
For unto whomsoever much is given,
of him shall be much required:
and to whom men have committed much,
of him they will ask the more.
The question I asked was, Are countries from the whole world involved in the verses I gave? It doesn't make any difference if they have to travel far to get to the Holy Land.
To be a part of the sword of the Nations doesn't mean you have to be actually hold and using a particular weapon. (the sword is just a word that describes any agency that 'is supposed to uphold the Law) Anybody who provides any form of support for the sword is also part of the sword. The sword of America includes all who collect wages that are from things related to the sword being able to perform its duty. The sword is only as righteous as the men who control what the sword does. Just because the ones who are the 'boots on the ground' get killed at Christ's return doesn't mean the ones who are part of that sword and are at home don't die at the same time.
Later
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/13/2007 3:47:00 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1892
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Hi Stranger,
quote:
The tendency to paint Islam as being 'the antichrist' also, not so conveniently.
I don’t paint Islam as being the antichrist because I still see the antichrist being a person or world leader. I do think the Islam religion is strongly involved and of course IMO the Islam religion is a religion of the antichrist, how else can you evaluate it, it opposes Jesus Christ and their goal is to destroy Israel. I still see Israel as being related to God and I think his covenant with them;
Zec 9:14 The LORD will appear above His people; His arrows will fly like lightning! The Sovereign LORD will sound the ram's horn and attack like a whirlwind from the southern desert.
Zec 9:15 The LORD of Heaven's Armies will protect His people, and they will defeat their enemies by hurling great stones. They will shout in battle as though drunk with wine. They will be filled with blood like a bowl, drenched with blood like the corners of the altar.
Zec 9:16 On that day the LORD their God will rescue His people, just as a shepherd rescues his sheep. They will sparkle in His land like jewels in a crown.
Zec 9:17 How wonderful and beautiful they will be! The young men will thrive on abundant grain, and the young women will flourish on new wine.
Zec 12:10 "Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on Me whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for Him as for a firstborn son who has died.
quote:
The question I asked was, Are countries from the whole world involved in the verses I gave?
Yes I see every major country being involved in the finial conflict; they will be aligned with one side or the other. What will be the role of the United States; well if it happened tomorrow we would support Israel, if it happens 10 years from now who knows. God will use his selected instruments to fulfill his will. There is no doubt that the United States today fulfills a role in God’s plan and that has been to support Israel. I like to believe that he will continue to do so.
If we are on the side of Israel then that would mean those forces against Israel will be against us…they are today and I would tell you, every other excuse aside, that is why we are involved with the radical Iambic forces today.
If we are on the side of Israel at that time then we can expect the battle be brought to this country, as it has been today but on a much larger scale. I don’t see an invasion but I do see intense destruction in the large metropolitan areas.
I still think the major destruction will occur in the Middle East and the major battles will also occur there.
The next step in the run up I think is the invasion by Islam of Israel which will start the 70th week as described in Ezekiel 38 when the Islamic army’s are drawn to Israel. You can see the beginning of this today and IMO is imminent. This action will allow the real antichrist to project himself into the balance of power in some way. Will he be from the Islamic nations, I suspect he might be but I can’t say for sure. I do think that the Muslim Nations will play a major part in the final battle at the end of the week but they will be supported by many other nation as well.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/13/2007 3:59:46 PM
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haribo
Posts: 7
Joined: 4/9/2007
Status: offline
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Daniel 12:4 Daniel, I now command you to keep the message of this book secret until the end of time, even though many people will go everywhere, searching for the knowledge to be found in it.
The book of Daniel is a favourite of mine for many reasons.
The first six chapters were written in Aramaic, which was a public language at that time.
But, the last six chapters were written in Hebrew, and meant for the Jews. It won't be understood till the end of time, as it says in ch12 v 4. So any interpretation of it's meaning by anyone, is as I've said before is pure conjecture, as with all unfullfilled prophecy.
I will be very surprised if Islam is the beast. Islam is monotheistic, I cannot see them being deceived, or worshipping the beast or antichrist.
As for Revelation, the warning is clear in ch 22 v 18,19 about adding to, or, taking away from the prophetic words of the book.
_____________________________
3nails+1cross=4given
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/13/2007 6:35:16 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1892
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
I cannot see them being deceived, or worshipping the beast or antichrist.
Gee Haribo,
Don't you see them alreadey being deceived?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/14/2007 2:07:30 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
I don’t paint Islam as being the antichrist because I still see the antichrist being a person or world leader. I do think the Islam religion is strongly involved and of course IMO the Islam religion is a religion of the antichrist, how else can you evaluate it, it opposes Jesus Christ and their goal is to destroy Israel. I still see Israel as being related to God and I think his covenant with them;
The man of sin in Thess:2 is certainly a man, but if you think you can nail down who he is, or what area of the world he will come from you can't. The man of sin will come out of the 10 kingdoms that Satan's Beast from the Pit will create when he gives power to 10 men. If you think those 10 men will come from just the middle-east or Islamic Nations then you really are limiting yourself. In the verses you posted it has Christ protecting His people, today Israel gets protection from Nations.
Maybe it never occurred to anybody that moving the Jews to their old homeland would be putting them in more danger than if they had been taken in by a Nation. It would certainly be easier for America to host them in America than halfway around the world.
What proof is there that Islam is out to destroy Israel? Palestine was not an uninhabited land in 1948. People got their homes taken away, where was their compensation? How many countries are on America's list of being in need of regime change, that is what Iran was saying, there is a need for a more moderate government in Israel. It is America's way of regime change that results in mass causalities of civilians. Is God now powerless to defend His people, in that He has to rely on other Nations to ensure they live in peace? Sorry to burst your bubble but America isn't God's sword.
Are you saying even the first line in the verses below have/are being fulfilled today?
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Zec 9:14 The LORD will appear above His people; His arrows will fly like lightning! The Sovereign LORD will sound the ram's horn and attack like a whirlwind from the southern desert.
Zec 9:15 The LORD of Heaven's Armies will protect His people, and they will defeat their enemies by hurling great stones. They will shout in battle as though drunk with wine. They will be filled with blood like a bowl, drenched with blood like the corners of the altar.
Zec 9:16 On that day the LORD their God will rescue His people, just as a shepherd rescues his sheep. They will sparkle in His land like jewels in a crown.
Zec 9:17 How wonderful and beautiful they will be! The young men will thrive on abundant grain, and the young women will flourish on new wine.
Zec 12:10 "Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on Me whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for Him as for a firstborn son who has died.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Yes I see every major country being involved in the finial conflict; they will be aligned with one side or the other. What will be the role of the United States; well if it happened tomorrow we would support Israel, if it happens 10 years from now who knows. God will use his selected instruments to fulfill his will. There is no doubt that the United States today fulfills a role in God’s plan and that has been to support Israel. I like to believe that he will continue to do so.
If we are on the side of Israel then that would mean those forces against Israel will be against us…they are today and I would tell you, every other excuse aside, that is why we are involved with the radical Iambic forces today.
If we are on the side of Israel at that time then we can expect the battle be brought to this country, as it has been today but on a much larger scale. I don’t see an invasion but I do see intense destruction in the large metropolitan areas.
I still think the major destruction will occur in the Middle East and the major battles will also occur there.
The next step in the run up I think is the invasion by Islam of Israel which will start the 70th week as described in Ezekiel 38 when the Islamic army’s are drawn to Israel. You can see the beginning of this today and IMO is imminent. This action will allow the real antichrist to project himself into the balance of power in some way. Will he be from the Islamic nations, I suspect he might be but I can’t say for sure. I do think that the Muslim Nations will play a major part in the final battle at the end of the week but they will be supported by many other nation as well.
Bob
Do you have any Scripture that points to America, or any Nation, being needed to protect God's people?
I'm not so sure you can brush those 'other excuses' aside. If America never lies and everything an Islamic country says is 'made out to be a lie' then Satan isn't going to have any problem whatsoever in collecting them into his kingdom. Anything said that would argue that the above is not black and white will just bounce off. Any person who is in search of truth needs both sides of the story and right now the truth is that America has been a lot more involved in mid-east affairs (like who should be in charge of the countries there) than the mid-east has been in America's affairs, Israel being the exception to that rule as she does have very much influence in America, even above and beyond America's own citizens.
Have you convinced yourself that the hydrocarbon law that is about to be passed in Iraq is for the benefit of the people of Iraq or does the 75% of the profits of those vast oilfields going to American companies kind of dispel that as being a lie?
If I seem to be defending Islam (bad guys) and bashing America (good guys) that isn't the case. Each Nation has the right to have a sword as a way of fighting evil. (Romans:13) The purity of that sword is only as pure as those who direct the sword. The same sword can be 'white' or 'red' but that is dependent on the 'character' of those directing the sword. Nor is the color fixed, what is white at one time can be red at another time.
Do I think the greatest portion of a countries natural resources belong to the people of the land on which they are found? Yes, even if it is another country that wants those resources they can't claim the majority of the money that comes from the resale.
Do you see everything the "Christian Nations' are doing as being totally in line with Christ's Laws? That would even include refraining from being busybodies in other people's affairs.
2Th:3:11:
For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly,
working not at all,
but are busybodies.
1Tm:5:13:
And withal they learn to be idle,
wandering about from house to house;
and not only idle,
but tattlers also and busybodies,
speaking things which they ought not.
1Pe:4:15:
But let none of you suffer as a murderer,
or as a thief,
or as an evildoer,
or as a busybody in other men's matters.
Later, Wayne
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/14/2007 4:21:17 PM
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Midwest
Posts: 251
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: haribo
Daniel 12:4 Daniel, I now command you to keep the message of this book secret until the end of time, even though many people will go everywhere, searching for the knowledge to be found in it.
The book of Daniel is a favourite of mine for many reasons.
The first six chapters were written in Aramaic, which was a public language at that time.
But, the last six chapters were written in Hebrew, and meant for the Jews. It won't be understood till the end of time, as it says in ch12 v 4. So any interpretation of it's meaning by anyone, is as I've said before is pure conjecture, as with all unfullfilled prophecy.
I will be very surprised if Islam is the beast. Islam is monotheistic, I cannot see them being deceived, or worshipping the beast or antichrist.
As for Revelation, the warning is clear in ch 22 v 18,19 about adding to, or, taking away from the prophetic words of the book.
If I am understanding you correctly, you believe we are before the time of the end and the book of Daniel is still sealed? So when do you think the time of the end begins (according to scripture)? Is it possible that we are already in the time of the end and the book is no longer sealed?
_____________________________
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;... Romans 1:16
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/14/2007 4:38:09 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1892
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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I was just going to quit reading if I couldn't understand it anyway.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/14/2007 6:28:03 PM
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JohnWilliams
Posts: 57
Joined: 3/31/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: haribo
Daniel 12:4 Daniel, I now command you to keep the message of this book secret until the end of time, even though many people will go everywhere, searching for the knowledge to be found in it.
The book of Daniel is a favourite of mine for many reasons. Mine too.quote:
ORIGINAL: haribo
The first six chapters were written in Aramaic, which was a public language at that time.
Written to the Gentiles.
quote:
ORIGINAL: haribo
But, the last six chapters were written in Hebrew, and meant for the Jews.
And the book of Daniel is not only bifidic, but it is also chiasmic:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/bifids_chiasms.htm
quote:
ORIGINAL: haribo
It won't be understood till the end of time, as it says in ch12 v 4. So any interpretation of it's meaning by anyone, is as I've said before is pure conjecture, as with all unfullfilled prophecy.
I will be very surprised if Islam is the beast. Islam is monotheistic, I cannot see them being deceived, or worshipping the beast or antichrist.
As for Revelation, the warning is clear in ch 22 v 18,19 about adding to, or, taking away from the prophetic words of the book.
_____________________________
God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not based on how good he is at defending his doctrine, but on how willing he is to seek out and follow the truth. ~ Ellis Skolfield.
Please visit http://www.beholdthebeast.com
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/14/2007 6:43:24 PM
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warrior5181
Posts: 86
Joined: 2/7/2007
From: North Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
The man of sin in Thess:2 is certainly a man, but if you think you can nail down who he is, or what area of the world he will come from you can't. The man of sin will come out of the 10 kingdoms that Satan's Beast from the Pit will create when he gives power to 10 men. If you think those 10 men will come from just the middle-east or Islamic Nations then you really are limiting yourself. In the verses you posted it has Christ protecting His people, today Israel gets protection from Nations.
Anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear can easily nail down who the AC is.....Its satan...It isnt a flesh and blood man.
_____________________________
By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics be called the will of god. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves. What god desires is in your heart.
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/14/2007 6:55:49 PM
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Midwest
Posts: 251
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: warrior5181
Anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear can easily nail down who the AC is.....Its satan...It isnt a flesh and blood man.
Not according to the only 4 verses in the Bible that contain the word antichrist or antichrists.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. KJV
These 4 verses clearly show that the antichrist or antichrists is anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ. There are billions of antichrists (muslims, budhists, hindies, atheists etc... and the list goes on). They have been in the world since John wrote these verses. Any flesh and blood man who denies Jesus is the Christ is antichrist. That includes my neighbors who are atheists. While it may not be politically correct to say this, it is the truth.
_____________________________
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;... Romans 1:16
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/14/2007 7:27:24 PM
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warrior5181
Posts: 86
Joined: 2/7/2007
From: North Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
Not according to the only 4 verses in the Bible that contain the word antichrist or antichrists.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. KJV
These 4 verses clearly show that the antichrist or antichrists is anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ. There are billions of antichrists (muslims, budhists, hindies, atheists etc... and the list goes on). They have been in the world since John wrote these verses. Any flesh and blood man who denies Jesus is the Christ is antichrist. That includes my neighbors who are atheists. While it may not be politically correct to say this, it is the truth.
II Thes 2 doesnt say antichrist...So why do so many say this is who Paul is referring to? Also note Christs own words on the matter
many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Here Christ is referring to the same ones John spoke about, but he draws a clear line of separation between the many antichrists/false prophets, and the abomination of desolation. Also, the prefix "Anti" in Greek, doesnt mean against...It means "In the place of", or "Instead of"....Hence II Thes 2 where Pauls says that the son of perdition will reveal himself to be God, so that he is worshipped as God...In short, he'll look like Christ, and he'll try and be worshipped like Christ...But he is the "Instead of Christ"
_____________________________
By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics be called the will of god. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves. What god desires is in your heart.
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/14/2007 8:29:27 PM
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Midwest
Posts: 251
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: warrior5181
quote:
Not according to the only 4 verses in the Bible that contain the word antichrist or antichrists.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. KJV
These 4 verses clearly show that the antichrist or antichrists is anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ. There are billions of antichrists (muslims, budhists, hindies, atheists etc... and the list goes on). They have been in the world since John wrote these verses. Any flesh and blood man who denies Jesus is the Christ is antichrist. That includes my neighbors who are atheists. While it may not be politically correct to say this, it is the truth.
II Thes 2 doesnt say antichrist...So why do so many say this is who Paul is referring to? Also note Christs own words on the matter
many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Here Christ is referring to the same ones John spoke about, but he draws a clear line of separation between the many antichrists/false prophets, and the abomination of desolation. Also, the prefix "Anti" in Greek, doesnt mean against...It means "In the place of", or "Instead of"....Hence II Thes 2 where Pauls says that the son of perdition will reveal himself to be God, so that he is worshipped as God...In short, he'll look like Christ, and he'll try and be worshipped like Christ...But he is the "Instead of Christ"
I was not talking about the man of sin . I was referring to your statement in post 61 this thread
http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=2322359
where you said " Anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear can easily nail down who the AC is.....Its satan...It isnt a flesh and blood man. "
As for the man of sin here is an excellent thread explaining him http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=2292673
The abomination of desolation is an "IT" that "STANDS" not a person.
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
The false prophet is just one of the billions of antichrists that have existed since John wrote the only 4 verses containing the word.
I think I will stick with the definition of antichrist that John gave us and that is anyone who denies Jesus Is the Christ is antichrist. Nothing in the Bible says otherwise.
_____________________________
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;... Romans 1:16
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/14/2007 9:42:51 PM
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JohnWilliams
Posts: 57
Joined: 3/31/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: warrior5181
quote:
Not according to the only 4 verses in the Bible that contain the word antichrist or antichrists.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. KJV
These 4 verses clearly show that the antichrist or antichrists is anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ. There are billions of antichrists (muslims, budhists, hindies, atheists etc... and the list goes on). They have been in the world since John wrote these verses. Any flesh and blood man who denies Jesus is the Christ is antichrist. That includes my neighbors who are atheists. While it may not be politically correct to say this, it is the truth.
II Thes 2 doesnt say antichrist...So why do so many say this is who Paul is referring to? Also note Christs own words on the matter
many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Here Christ is referring to the same ones John spoke about, but he draws a clear line of separation between the many antichrists/false prophets, and the abomination of desolation. The abomination of desolation is a different subject. It is an object.
quote:
ORIGINAL: warrior5181
Also, the prefix "Anti" in Greek, doesnt mean against...It means "In the place of", or "Instead of"....
Instead of is fine. The spirit of antichrist is in each person who denies that Jesus is the Christ or denies the Father and the Son. The spirit of antichrist is there instead of Christ.
And each and every person that denies is AN antichrist, as the verses make clear. Flesh and blood men. Billions of them. quote:
ORIGINAL: warrior5181
Hence II Thes 2 where Pauls says that the son of perdition will reveal himself to be God, so that he is worshipped as God... Man of sin a different subject. You continue on with presumption, without considering where he "sitteth". quote:
ORIGINAL: warrior5181
In short, he'll look like Christ, and he'll try and be worshipped like Christ...But he is the "Instead of Christ"
Muslims declare God has no son so each and every one is an antichrist.
Consider those that deny Christ and worship the earth instead: (if you're not familiar with this site you need to click on the link): http://www.arkofhope.org/ The spirit of antichrist in folks replaces Christ in their lives, with worship of the earth.
< Message edited by JohnWilliams -- 4/14/2007 10:31:20 PM >
_____________________________
God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not based on how good he is at defending his doctrine, but on how willing he is to seek out and follow the truth. ~ Ellis Skolfield.
Please visit http://www.beholdthebeast.com
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/14/2007 10:18:49 PM
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tony.nz
Posts: 295
Joined: 7/6/2005
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I havent had time to read all this discussion.
Correct me if I am wrong, however I believe that "Allah" did not become the Arabic word meaning "God", until after the advent of Islam. Before that, "Allah" was the proper name of one of many gods worshipped in Mecca. Basically, Muhammed fused pagan worship with the concept of one God promulgated by Jews/Christians. And, used the name of the particular deity of his choosing.
This is significant, because it indicates to me that "Allah" is the name of a particular demon spirit, impersonating the one true God. It is irrelevent/meaningless therefore to argue that "Allah" is just an arabic word meaning "God". If there was a religion that worshipped Satan, and later "Satan" became the linguistically accepted and common word for which they referred to the Creator, then it would not be correct to argue that "Satan" and God refer to the same entity. Rather, I would think that Satan had used this as a ploy to take (steal) worship that belongs to the true Creater only. Therefore, I will not use the name of some "moon god", in referring to Him to whom all Glory belongs.
Islam is obviously infused with the spirit of Antichrist, because it denies the Son of God. And, it therefore denies the Father also. It cannot be said to worship the same God. However, the question is, whether the embodiment of all evil represented by one individual, and known as the Antichrist, is the false prophet Muhammed. Or is it some future false prophet yet to be revealed?
And, this is one area where I am having some issues, John. I understand the point you have made in regard to the misguided and twisted attempts made by some Muslims to utilise the number 666, to "prove" that the Quran is inspired. However, I am struggling to see how the name Muhammed is associated with the number. And scripture makes it clear, that this is the number of a man.
In regard to using this argument to "hate" Muslims, and to not share the gospel with them, that is not correct, nor biblical. We were all enemies of the gospel of Christ, until our hearts were enlightened by the Spirit of Truth. That is the hope we must hold out for all. Saul was an example of a man operating under the spirit of Antichrist, denying the Lord Jesus Christ, and persecuting the saints. We do not know who the Lord will call next.
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/15/2007 8:38:16 AM
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JohnWilliams
Posts: 57
Joined: 3/31/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tony.nz
I havent had time to read all this discussion.
Correct me if I am wrong, however I believe that "Allah" did not become the Arabic word meaning "God", until after the advent of Islam. Before that, "Allah" was the proper name of one of many gods worshipped in Mecca. Basically, Muhammed fused pagan worship with the concept of one God promulgated by Jews/Christians. And, used the name of the particular deity of his choosing.
This is significant, because it indicates to me that "Allah" is the name of a particular demon spirit, impersonating the one true God. It is irrelevent/meaningless therefore to argue that "Allah" is just an arabic word meaning "God". If there was a religion that worshipped Satan, and later "Satan" became the linguistically accepted and common word for which they referred to the Creator, then it would not be correct to argue that "Satan" and God refer to the same entity. Rather, I would think that Satan had used this as a ploy to take (steal) worship that belongs to the true Creater only. Therefore, I will not use the name of some "moon god", in referring to Him to whom all Glory belongs.
Islam is obviously infused with the spirit of Antichrist, because it denies the Son of God. And, it therefore denies the Father also. It cannot be said to worship the same God. However, the question is, whether the embodiment of all evil represented by one individual, and known as the Antichrist, Where do you find anyone in Revelation indicated by this term? The false prophet is never named this. Or even the concept of an individual that is "the embodiment of all evil"? I understand it is popular, but is it scriptural?
Was Mohammed an evil guy? Sure. Was he operated by Satan? I have no doubt. He even thought so himself from time to time. Are his minions that are causing mayhem around the world evil antichrists? Of course. Try this:
In Indonesia 3 teenage girls were beheaded on their way to their Christian school and their heads left on the steps of a Church. The note left behind reads: "We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents."
http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsID=448
"Once again, women are the targets. In mid-March, rebels assaulted three women gathering firewood and cut off their ears, lips, and breasts."
"Starting in 2003, Janjaweed Arabs, a Sudan-backed militia, have driven 2 million villagers from their homes in ethnic-cleansing attacks designed to suppress local rebels."
http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/2005/may/21.26.html
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm
A lot of the church can't see our suffering brothers and sisters around the world today, because they believe that tribulation is something that is reserved for some future someday.
Some of the church is out chasing a future boogeyman when there are 1.5 billion antichrists in Islam - right before their eyes - that they can't see. This is the real victory for the enemy (Satan).
And he successfully removed the term from the Christian vocabulary except as applied to an individual. Ask the guy next to you in church today "what is the antichrist?". Do you think he will answer "it is the spirit in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ?". Not likely. He will go off talking about a boogeyman. Whether from some future fantasy, or perhaps peg Nero (if your church is preterist or orthodox).
quote:
ORIGINAL: tony.nz
is the false prophet Muhammed. Or is it some future false prophet yet to be revealed?
Since I believe that the LBL beast is a kingdom, just as Daniel defined it, and Daniel's lion, bear and leopard are geographically approximately today Iraq, Iran, and Syria/Lebanon, being 99%, 98% and 90%/60% Muslim respectively, I have no choice but to understand Mohammed as the false prophet. And he is leading 1.5 billion people to perditin as I write.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tony.nz
And, this is one area where I am having some issues, John. I understand the point you have made in regard to the misguided and twisted attempts made by some Muslims to utilise the number 666, to "prove" that the Quran is inspired.
The relationship of Islam as the leopard-bear-lion beast of Revelation 13 is entirely independent from the subject of the original post in this thread, and association of Islam and the number 666.
Nor do I believe the mark to be physical. I just included the picture of the woman slicing up her baby's forehead and beating the blood out of it for the comic/tragic quality of the photo.
The content of the OP is what I have discovered on the internet.
I first heard Walid Shoebat on Glen Beck's radio show though.
But all within the last 6 months or so.
Entirely unimportant to this eschatology. But don't you have to admit that it is a pretty stunning coincidence, if that is what it is?
The proof of Islam as the LBL beast of Rev 13 is apparent from scripture, not conjecture, or speculating about the future through unfulfilled prophecy.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tony.nz
However, I am struggling to see how the name Muhammed is associated with the number. And scripture makes it clear, that this is the number of a man.
The beast is numbered, with the number of a man, isn't it?
Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.
You can see more clearly here that it is the beast that is numbered:
Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Islam is the name of the beast. The prophet Mohammed founded Islam. He is credited with the Koran - the mouth of the beast - (although he was illiterate and they also believe that their god wrote it).
These 666 websites say the quran = 666. The quran is how the beast speaks. Perhaps God had this Islamic sect mark the beast, to warn Christians, Jews AND MUSLIMS that they were marked with the number.
You have to admit that this would be a huge and bizzare coincidence.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tony.nz
In regard to using this argument to "hate" Muslims, When does this argument encourage hating Muslims? It is our charge to love Muslims and do our best to save them from the spirit of antichrist, and the fate that the bible sugests awaits the beast and the false prophet. I believe that the best way to do that is with the truth. Indeed THE ONLY WAY.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tony.nz
and to not share the gospel with them, that is not correct, nor biblical.
And anybody who would suggest that it is not our job to share the gospel with them could hardly consider themselves Christian, could they? quote:
ORIGINAL: tony.nz
We were all enemies of the gospel of Christ, until our hearts were enlightened by the Spirit of Truth. That is the hope we must hold out for all. Saul was an example of a man operating under the spirit of Antichrist, denying the Lord Jesus Christ, and persecuting the saints. We do not know who the Lord will call next.
Amen bro. But we won't win Muslims to Christ with unsupportable fantasy. The gospels are first. But when the subject of end times comes up, it needs to be about truth.
Muslims probably read the Quran less that Christians read the bible. Perhaps the best way to win them is with verse by verse bible comparisons like these:
Bible: Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Koran: (Sura 2:223) your wives are as tilth (farmland) unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will.
Bible: Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Koran (Sura 8:12) I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them
Can any reasonable person imagine, for even a moment, that these verses are from the same God?
Walid shoebat said that the first time the Lord pressed on his heart was when he asked his Palistinian terrorist teacher if rape of women wasn't wrong. His teacher assured him it was perfectly acceptable to Allah when rape is part of holy jihad. That is when he heard the knocking on his heart.
Different people are reached in different ways. My interest was kindled by Jack Van Impe. He really opened my eyes by suggesting the end of all things. I was eventually saved (maybe 10 years after I was woken up). I understand his eschatology to be a fantasy now, but I am still saved, and further charged as a result. The most radical Muslims are all about end-times. Eschatology may reach them more effectively.
It's about truth.
"God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not based on how good he is at defending his doctrine, but on how willing he is to seek out and follow the truth." - Ellis Skolfield.
_____________________________
God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not based on how good he is at defending his doctrine, but on how willing he is to seek out and follow the truth. ~ Ellis Skolfield.
Please visit http://www.beholdthebeast.com
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/15/2007 3:37:29 PM
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haribo
Posts: 7
Joined: 4/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Midwest
quote:
ORIGINAL: haribo
Daniel 12:4 Daniel, I now command you to keep the message of this book secret until the end of time, even though many people will go everywhere, searching for the knowledge to be found in it.
The book of Daniel is a favourite of mine for many reasons.
The first six chapters were written in Aramaic, which was a public language at that time.
But, the last six chapters were written in Hebrew, and meant for the Jews. It won't be understood till the end of time, as it says in ch12 v 4. So any interpretation of it's meaning by anyone, is as I've said before is pure conjecture, as with all unfullfilled prophecy.
I will be very surprised if Islam is the beast. Islam is monotheistic, I cannot see them being deceived, or worshipping the beast or antichrist.
As for Revelation, the warning is clear in ch 22 v 18,19 about adding to, or, taking away from the prophetic words of the book.
If I am understanding you correctly, you believe we are before the time of the end and the book of Daniel is still sealed? So when do you think the time of the end begins (according to scripture)? Is it possible that we are already in the time of the end and the book is no longer sealed?
We are undoubtably fast approaching the end times, what we see happening in the world today is just the first birth pains. But, it's going to get much worse. The world will be looking for a saviour, and satan's man will step in and deceive the world by false miracles. Just be watchful, keep oil in your lamps, don't let your love grow cold.
There may well be a pre trib rapture, or a mid trib. There are arguments for both.
My personal belief, is post trib, as I believe the church will go through the tribulation.
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3nails+1cross=4given
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RE: 666 and Islam - The Mark of the Beast - 4/15/2007 4:11:08 PM
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Midwest
Posts: 251
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: haribo
quote:
ORIGINAL: Midwest
quote:
ORIGINAL: haribo
Daniel 12:4 Daniel, I now command you to keep the message of this book secret until the end of time, even though many people will go everywhere, searching for the knowledge to be found in it.
The book of Daniel is a favourite of mine for many reasons.
The first six chapters were written in Aramaic, which was a public language at that time.
But, the last six chapters were written in Hebrew, and meant for the Jews. It won't be understood till the end of time, as it says in ch12 v 4. So any interpretation of i | | |
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