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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2005 11:54:57 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tabby2002
quote:
ORIGINAL: rockv12
I Cor. 11:15 says, "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering." I always took this verse to explain why woman are supposed to have long hair and men aren't.
My question is in regard to the above verse.
Tabby:
The length of the hair is not the primary focus, and hair length may vary depending on genetic makeup. However, if a girl's hair are never shorn, they can grow well beyond shoulder length down to or past the hips.
That's not the issue. The fact is that female hair will naturally grow much longer than male hair, and perhaps Paul is taking us back to Eve, who without any clothing, would have her long hair as a covering for modesty's sake. This is an object lesson.
What seems to confuse people is that while Paul is using the lesson from "nature" -- "her hair is given her for a covering" to teach spiritual truth -- "power on her head beacuse of the angels", they turn spiritual truth around and bring it back to nature and say that if a woman has her hair why does she need a covering?
If this entire teaching was about women using their uncovered hair as the "covering" that is required during worship, then everything that Paul says would be simply farcical. BTW this is New Testament truth (just like the Lord's Supper) so searching for it in the OT is futile. All we have to do is read it, understand it, and apply it.
Note carefully how Paul begins to explain this teaching and how he words it: "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered, dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one AS IF she were shaven [bald]" (v.5). Therefore we see a comparision here between an uncovered head and a shaven head as being equally unacceptable during worship.
Paul goes on to say that if a woman insists on being uncovered, she might as well shear her hair, or shave her head bald (v. 6) and bring dishonor to herself, because that is exactly what would have happened had women come to worship bald or shorn. While the stigma does not exist in Western society today, the lesson is for all ages.
The point is that nature has given women their long (or longer) hair both as a covering and as a "glory" (something which will attract admiration and praise), therefore the glory must be covered in God's presence, while the natural covering teaches women that a covering over the heads during worship is not something foreign to womanhood.
Essentially, Christian women with covered heads and Christian men with uncovered heads symbolize before God the proper relationship between Christ and His Church -- He is the Head, Lord and authority over His Church, and the Church is in complete submission to Him in all things as His Bride. At the same time, Christian women publicly display their submission to their own husbands through this.
The men thus symbolically display "the image and glory of God" (v.7) "uncovered", while the women show that their "glory" is hidden from view with a covering, and that they are under submission to their husbands and to God (vv.9,10). The holy angels see this and note that the grace of God is at work in that assembly, "which things the angels desire to look into" (1 Pet.1:12).
< Message edited by Ezra -- 6/18/2005 12:27:41 AM >
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2005 12:19:47 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saintgrace
I avoid legalistic prescriptions for holiness, and I totally steer clear of churches that put more emphasis on things such as this than they do on the grace and mercy of our Lord.
Since the Lord's Supper and the woman's head covering are both contained in the same chapter, should we also conclude that the Lord's supper is a "legalistic prescription for holiness"? I trust you see the fallacy of your argument.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/19/2005 9:19:14 AM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1472
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From: an ignoble beginning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2cappucinosmom
quote:
are any of you aware of churches which practice headcovering?
In the States, I only know those of an anabaptist nature. Amish, Mennonite, some Brethren groups. There's also a newish church group called Charity Christian Fellowship that is highly evangelical and mission-minded, but is very serious about modesty and headcovering.
Other than that, there may be a few individual congregations within other denominations that practice, but the vast majority of those who cover I'd guess are simply individuals who've come to personal conviction.
Some Apostolic churches cover as well..as do some Catholics still.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/19/2005 9:26:46 AM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1472
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From: an ignoble beginning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tabby2002
quote:
ORIGINAL: rockv12
I Cor. 11:15 says, "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering." I always took this verse to explain why woman are supposed to have long hair and men aren't.
My question is in regard to the above verse. If a woman's cover is her long hair...then if a woman has short hair she should wear some sort of head covering? If a woman has long hair does she still need to wear a covering even though it says her hair is a covering? Define "long hair" and "short hair"...it doesn't say how long the hair must be to be considered long...shoulder length? waist length? above the shoulder? A couple inches below the shoulder? Any answers or thoughts to this? I tried to read all the posts but didn't get through them all...don't know if this has been discussed yet or not. My apologies if it has been, and can someone point me to the post it was discussed in please.
A woman's long hair is not her covering in the sense of a sign of authority for the angels (which is the veiling or kapp), but it is her covering as far as what was given to her by God to differentiate between her and her husband.
Long hair is defined generally as not cutting it. Period. For some women, that may mean their hair only grows to their shoulders....for some it may mean longer. Personally, while I do not cut my hair at all, except to trim split ends, etc...I think it is any style that is feminine and cannot in any way be confused for a man's hairstyle (no androgenous cuts!!!) and preferably at least to the shoulder.
A woman's covering was/is a sign of her being under the authority of her husband (as is Scriptural...NOT as his slave, but as his helpmeet and builder up/strengthener)
I have know women with short hair who covered.
Interestingly enough..what is the first thing a woman on chemo does when her hair falls out?
she buys a covering of some kind...either a wig or scarves or something....
no matter how long or short her hair was before.....her nature demands that her head be covered....
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/19/2005 4:06:20 PM
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Ps103
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quote:
Interestingly enough..what is the first thing a woman on chemo does when her hair falls out?
she buys a covering of some kind...either a wig or scarves or something....
no matter how long or short her hair was before.....her nature demands that her head be covered....
Interesting point.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/19/2005 4:11:20 PM
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lss44
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quote:
1 Peter 3:3-4
3 Your adornment must not be merely external--braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
I think these verses put the idea of outward appearance in context.
Yes, I quote myself...does anyone else see that this fits here?
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/19/2005 9:19:32 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1472
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From: an ignoble beginning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
quote:
1 Peter 3:3-4
3 Your adornment must not be merely external--braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
I think these verses put the idea of outward appearance in context.
Yes, I quote myself...does anyone else see that this fits here?
yes...it does fit. It shows that the gentle and quiet spirit of submission is to be shown..and for some women, so led by God, that is by wearing a covering.
the passage that you took that verse from reads:
Wives, in the same way, submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, even if some disobey the Christian message, they may be won over without a message by the way their wives live, 2 when they observe your pure, reverent lives. 3 Your beauty should not be the outer beauty of elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold ornaments or of fine clothes; 4 rather, it should be an inner beauty with the imperishability of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very valuable in God's eyes. (holman christian standard bible)
Another version puts it this way:
(NAS):
In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.
Your adornment must not be merely external --braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses
Wearing a covering is not an adornment or worn to bring attention to one's self. It is a following of an INNER conviction that God has laid on one's heart.
IF at any time it becomes about "me"....then there is a problem. But the same can be said of those who do not cover.
I have heard some use that verse in I Peter to justify NOT combing their hair at all..and not worrying about whether or not they are even clean.
What we wear should be a reflection of what is within us.....not the other way around.
and that is the point of covering...
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/19/2005 9:32:10 PM
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lss44
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We can have a gentle and quiet spirit without adorning our heads.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/20/2005 12:09:34 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1780
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
We can have a gentle and quiet spirit without adorning our heads.
You seem to be missing the point. Since a woman's hair is her "glory", the head covering meant to hide that glory in the presence of God is NOT an "adornment" but a sign that she is under authority -- God's authority, Christ's authority and her husband's authority.
Just as a royal sceptre is a symbol of a king's authority, the head covering on a Christian woman is a symbol that Christ's royal authority is over her. "Headship" means authority, and that's where Paul begins -- the "head" of the woman is the man, the "Head" of the man is Christ, and the "Head" of Christ is God the Father.
Modest apparel and a meek, quiet and submissive spirit go hand in hand with the head covering, but they do not replace it during worship.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/20/2005 11:58:50 AM
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lss44
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Which denominations have women wearing head coverings during worship?
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/20/2005 3:10:38 PM
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lss44
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quote:
f you were to review some of the other posts, you'll find several denominations listed. But what if there was not a single denomination maintaining this? Would it invalidate Scripture?
Pardon me for not reading the entire web log. I was just curious. And I absolutely do not feel people validate or invalidate Scripture.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/20/2005 4:38:37 PM
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Romans828
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
quote:
1 Peter 3:3-4
3 Your adornment must not be merely external--braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
I think these verses put the idea of outward appearance in context.
Yes, I quote myself...does anyone else see that this fits here?
Yes.
If women in every Christian church during this time were covering, why was there a problem with women wearing gold and pearls in their hair?
Who would have known that some women were wearing gold and pearls in their hair if their hair was covered?
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/20/2005 5:10:34 PM
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lss44
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Good point, Romans828
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/20/2005 7:33:09 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Romans828
If women in every Christian church during this time were covering, why was there a problem with women wearing gold and pearls in their hair?
Who would have known that some women were wearing gold and pearls in their hair if their hair was covered?
Firstly, since not all were covering or understood the meaning initially, it had to be taught (as it was to the Corinthinans) until all Christians began to practice it.
Secondly, the covering was primarily during worship meetings. It may have been that after the meetings, when the head coverings were removed, some of the women were found to be wearing elaborate ornamentation on their heads (possibly with elaborate hairdos), hence the teaching to adorn themselves modestly and focus on the inner person.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/20/2005 7:47:10 PM
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lss44
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Another question I have in regard to the head covering during worship is this...do these women today, in the denominations that have previously been mentioned,only wear the headcover during the actual worship service. If they worship God as they drive down the road with a praise lifted to Him, do they need to cover their head? Please do not think I am being sarcastic, I really wonder if their time of worship is only in the church and do they cover their heads every time they worship?
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/20/2005 8:22:02 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1780
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
Another question I have in regard to the head covering during worship is this...do these women today, in the denominations that have previously been mentioned,only wear the headcover during the actual worship service.
Paul is primarily dealing with corporate worship, when the whole church comes together to partake of the Lord's Supper and worship. Private worship is not addressed here.
Some women will cover their heads during private worship, others may not. Some will wear head coverings continuously.
But when the church assembles and all are present, the instructions given in 1 Cor. 11:1-34 are directly applicable, just as the instructions regarding women speaking in the assembly are also within the context of corporate worship (1 Cor. 14:34-38), along with other aspects of worship discussed in that chapter.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/21/2005 9:52:21 AM
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lss44
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quote:
My covering is a part of my wardrobe. It goes on when I get dressed and stays on all day.
Of the covering women I know, most cover their heads all day every day. Only two wear a covering just for church services. 2cappucinosmom
Thank you for sharing your situation. I find this interesting and was not aware of this practice in today's churches.
Please, one more question...is this a total head covering or similar to the Amish or Mennonite?
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2005 8:08:47 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
We can have a gentle and quiet spirit without adorning our heads.
as someone else pointed out...it is not an adornment....adornment is done to draw attention to something for our praise....
and to point out a twist to what you stated...we can also have a quiet and gentle spirit and not wear clothing either...
now back to the real issue....
Why do non-covering believers feel they have to justify not covering or argue so vehemently against it?
It still comes back to...."Judge for yourselves..."
I am not in bondage because I cover....I do not need to be convinced of anything. Neither am I trying to convince anyone else to cover....it is God's place to lead....not mine...but I will discuss and explain my stance.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2005 9:19:39 PM
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lss44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
We can have a gentle and quiet spirit without adorning our heads.
as someone else pointed out...it is not an adornment....adornment is done to draw attention to something for our praise....
and to point out a twist to what you stated...we can also have a quiet and gentle spirit and not wear clothing either...
now back to the real issue....
Why do non-covering believers feel they have to justify not covering or argue so vehemently against it?
It still comes back to...."Judge for yourselves..."
I am not in bondage because I cover....I do not need to be convinced of anything. Neither am I trying to convince anyone else to cover....it is God's place to lead....not mine...but I will discuss and explain my stance.
I am not standing in judgement of you, nor do I ask you to defend your belief...it is yours and that is fine. I was just curious and asking for more information. I sincerely did not mean to offend.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2005 9:27:02 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
quote:
ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
We can have a gentle and quiet spirit without adorning our heads.
as someone else pointed out...it is not an adornment....adornment is done to draw attention to something for our praise....
and to point out a twist to what you stated...we can also have a quiet and gentle spirit and not wear clothing either...
now back to the real issue....
Why do non-covering believers feel they have to justify not covering or argue so vehemently against it?
It still comes back to...."Judge for yourselves..."
I am not in bondage because I cover....I do not need to be convinced of anything. Neither am I trying to convince anyone else to cover....it is God's place to lead....not mine...but I will discuss and explain my stance.
I am not standing in judgement of you, nor do I ask you to defend your belief...it is yours and that is fine. I was just curious and asking for more information. I sincerely did not mean to offend.
I apologize as well for seeming to be offended. I was making a general response about non-coverers...and DO welcome honest questions and dialogue.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2005 4:08:35 PM
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NYChristian_gal
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I am in fellowship with congregations where some ladies do cover their heads, and some do not.
1 Cor. 11. This passage is discussing the order of headship or order of submission- starting with God, then Christ, man, then woman, and lastly children (which can be found in other passages). Christ is in submission to God, man to Christ, woman to man -and of course Christ and God- (vs3).
When Paul wrote this letter, it was a general CUSTOM of that day in Corinth that women wore veils in public. If a woman appeared in public without the veil it was generally thought of as advertising herself as a prostitute. Note the veil in discussion fully covered her head, including face, and shoulders. Most in the church who adhere to this practice today that I have seen wear hats or a small covering on their heads. To use this passage as a proof text of their practice, they really should wear a complete veil. But that’s a secondary point.
At some point in history, women started wearing a veil to symbolize subjection to men (I’d say first to a father, then at marriage, to her husband). It seems from the passage in 1 Corinthians 11, that some of the women who had been converted to Christ felt they no longer needed to wear the head coverings and were coming out in public, specifically in the worship service, without their veils. During that day and time, what would that have conveyed to others around them? It would have made her appear that she was not in subjection to the man seeing as the veil was a symbol of modesty and subjection. It could have also indicated that she was advertising herself as a prostitute. When we see a woman today wearing a hat or a piece of cloth on their head, do we think: “There’s a woman who is in subjection to her husband”? No. Why? It’s not the CUSTOM of our day.
So, in Corinth, in those days, Paul is saying that a Christian woman must not appear in the worship assemblies unveiled. For her to come unveiled would have been wrong. That is not our CUSTOM today, thus it is not wrong for us to come to worship without a head covering of some sort.
Lessons for us:
1. We should be aware of the CUSTOMS of our day and not do anything that would hinder our influence as an ambassador of Christ today.
2. The principle of submission is an everlasting principle. Submission is often a hard subject for women to study, but it is actually a very beautiful concept.
I will hasten to add, if a women so chooses to wear something on her head today, as long as she doesn’t bind it on others, that also is not wrong.
1 Corinthians 11:16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.
It should not be a point of contention. If you believe women should wear head coverings, do it. If not, don't. It is not a command, nor a custom of the church.
I have a dear Christian friend who always wears a head covering. She believes she should have her head covered any time she is in the worship assembly or any time she prays. She does not bind that practice on anyone, but deeply believes it is something she should do. I can respect her belief, even though I can find no scripture that requires a head covering. However, I do admire her conviction to practice what she believes. I would never want to encourage her or any other woman to do something that would go against her conscience. That would be in violation of scripture (1 John 4:19-21; 1 Cor. 8:9-13; Rom. 13:10; Rom. 15:1-2).
_____________________________
Rev. 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
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RE: Head Covering - One Stop Thread - 
That is legalism. 