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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/31/2008 8:54:43 PM
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Closie
Posts: 304
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
If one isn't for making abortion illegal, then one is at some smaller level for it. The tolerance of it's legality is necessary for it to thrive.
Will making abortion illegal stop it? Until hearts are changed, please understand that babies will still die. They will be just dead.
Will changing people's hearts stop abortion?
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/31/2008 10:39:00 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1982
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Yeah, and people used to think that way about owning slaves too. Perhaps the abolitionists should have minded their own business?
I don't think it was seen in the same way. Most liberals don't see the right to property as a basic human right.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/31/2008 10:55:45 PM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 359
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Closie
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
If one isn't for making abortion illegal, then one is at some smaller level for it. The tolerance of it's legality is necessary for it to thrive.
Will making abortion illegal stop it? Until hearts are changed, please understand that babies will still die. They will be just dead.
Will changing people's hearts stop abortion?
Making abortion illegal may not completely stop it, but it would reduce the number performed which would mean fewer dead babies. A person's support of abortion may be a heart issue, but if all that is done is to try to change people's hearts and the issue of the legality of abortion is left alone, a lot more babies are still going to die in the process. When a child's life is in danger of being killed by someone, should the immediate response be to try to change the person's heart who is about to kill the child, or should the immediate response be to try to save the child's life? Yes, we should try to change the hearts of those that support abortion, but we should also try as hard as we can to make it illegal. After all, murder is illegal (at least it is if it is done to one who in not in the womb) and yet murder still takes place. Do you not think that a lot more murder would take place if it were not illegal? It most likely would. If it were legal, would you not think that an immediate response would be to try to make it illegal?
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See for Yourself
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/31/2008 10:59:12 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1982
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
Making abortion illegal may not completely stop it, but it would reduce the number performed which would mean fewer dead babies. A person's support of abortion may be a heart issue, but if all that is done is to try to change people's hearts and the issue of the legality of abortion is left alone, a lot more babies are still going to die in the process. When a child's life is in danger of being killed by someone, should the immediate response be to try to change the person's heart who is about to kill the child, or should the immediate response be to try to save the child's life? Yes, we should try to change the hearts of those that support abortion, but we should also try as hard as we can to make it illegal. After all, murder is illegal (at least it is if it is done to one who in not in the womb) and yet murder still takes place. Do you not think that a lot more murder would take place if it were not illegal? It most likely would. If it were legal, would you not think that an immediate response would be to try to make it illegal?
Whoever said that?
Drinking (and the mob) didn't become big until we had prohibition. That, along with gambling, prostitution, and drugs.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/31/2008 11:18:50 PM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 359
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BlackCapnHarlock
No Christian I know personally supports abortion. They all agree (including me) that it's sinful. However, as in terms of legality we have to be honest that we are living in a sinful world where many sinful things such as fornication, pornography, homosexuality (except in the military), alcohol consumption, profanity and others are legal.
Abortion involves the death of a person (the baby). If it were legal for a person to cut up a one year old child, would you make this same comparison? Since a baby living in the womb is just as much a living person as a one year old, then both situations should receive the same equal weight.
quote:
If we make it so that abortion is illegal, it will not stop abortions from happening, rich folks will still get them behind closed doors and poor folks will get them in back alleys.
It is illegal for a person to murder someone (as long as they have been born), and yet this still happens. Should it be legal since it will happen anyway? Would you not agree that since murder is illegal, that it happens less than it otherwise would?
quote:
The reality is that people need to come to CHRIST and believe in him, that is the answer to abortion, but making it illegal, after over 20 years of legality is futile and a waste of our time.
My response in #603 addresses this.
_____________________________
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See for Yourself
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/31/2008 11:23:55 PM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 359
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
Making abortion illegal may not completely stop it, but it would reduce the number performed which would mean fewer dead babies. A person's support of abortion may be a heart issue, but if all that is done is to try to change people's hearts and the issue of the legality of abortion is left alone, a lot more babies are still going to die in the process. When a child's life is in danger of being killed by someone, should the immediate response be to try to change the person's heart who is about to kill the child, or should the immediate response be to try to save the child's life? Yes, we should try to change the hearts of those that support abortion, but we should also try as hard as we can to make it illegal. After all, murder is illegal (at least it is if it is done to one who in not in the womb) and yet murder still takes place. Do you not think that a lot more murder would take place if it were not illegal? It most likely would. If it were legal, would you not think that an immediate response would be to try to make it illegal?
Whoever said that?
Drinking (and the mob) didn't become big until we had prohibition. That, along with gambling, prostitution, and drugs.
Do you not agree that the number of abortions would be less if it were made illegal? For one, it would make it much harder for one to get an abortion. If it were illegal, all the abortion clinics would have to close. Are you trying to say above that I am wrong in thinking that if murder were legal, it would happen more than it does now? If that were not true, then why not push to make it legal?
_____________________________
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See for Yourself
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/31/2008 11:26:13 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1982
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
Do you not agree that the number of abortions would be less if it were made illegal? For one, it would make it much harder for one to get an abortion. If it were illegal, all the abortion clinics would have to close. Are you trying to say above that I am wrong in thinking that if murder were legal, it would happen more than it does now? If that were not true, then why not push to make it legal?
I think that many people would get abortions just for the sake of it being illegal. That's what tends to happen when you illegalize a practice that's been legal for 35 years. Unlike slavery, abortion doesn't have to be out in the open. The government can't crack down on it like it could forced labor.
I don't think the government is going to be able to start issuing sepinas to examine womens' uteruses whenever they miscarry.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/31/2008 11:49:17 PM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 359
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
I think that many people would get abortions just for the sake of it being illegal. That's what tends to happen when you illegalize a practice that's been legal for 35 years.
That is not what I asked. What I asked was this:
"Do you not agree that the number of abortions would be less if it were made illegal?"
I did not ask what for what type of reasons would women have abortions if abortions were made illegal.
Some people shoplift just for the thrill of it. If shoplifting were not illegal, then there would be no "thrill" in it. I am sure you would not advocate to legalize shoplifting so that shoplifting would not occur for that reason.
Making abortion illegal would remove the convenience of it, for one, by removing all of the abortion clinics. Just this alone would mean fewer abortions.
quote:
Unlike slavery, abortion doesn't have to be out in the open. The government can't crack down on it like it could forced labor.
Even if it would be harder for the government to crack down on illegal abortions, it would not be impossible. If you are saying that this is a reason why we should not advocate to make abortion illegal, then what about other crimes that are hard for the government to crack down on? Should they be made legal?
_____________________________
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See for Yourself
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/1/2008 1:01:31 AM
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ljmac
Posts: 1375
Joined: 11/20/2006
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Now I get it! Committing abortion is like drinking a beer, if the government says no, then you can't wait to get one.
How many children have to die while we're waiting for someone's heart to change?
I'm never surprised about how ill-informed people are about abortion. Abortion numbers skyrocketed after Death Roe. In five years the number of abortions nearly doubled. Banning abortion saves lives. Those lives matter too! There are likely millions of people alive today because their life didn't depend on someone's "heart." And there are many more dead because we adopted the policy of legal abortion advocated by many on this board.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/1/2008 4:25:29 AM
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katydid278
Posts: 12
Joined: 6/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
First of all, the child is not an “it”. Secondly, your statement is irrelevant. An infant cannot sustain himself either. Left alone, the infant would be unable to survive as the infant could not feed himself, protect himself from the elements, etc. There are some adults who, due to physical and/or mental disabilities, are also unable to sustain themselves. Would you say that they are not entitled to protection from death because they cannot sustain themselves?
 How do I always know what irrelevant little thing people are going to pick on or pick "up" on when I post something?
I know a child is not an "it."
Just because I have a different view on the LEGALITY of abortion than you do does not mean I am a complete idiot.
I called the fetus an IT because we are speaking in general terms...as in...there is no he/she because we are speaking hypothetically.  I guess I should have been prim and proper and wrote out he/she sorry.
Example: WHen speaking of a cat you might encounter out on the street you are going to say "Isn't "it" cute? Because you don't know the sex of the animal.
Forgive me I am cranky today. You haven't changed my mind. I respect your opinion and all...but I still believe that government has no right to get between a woman and her gynecologist. It's medical privacy priviledge. God says that homosexual sex is an abomination and specified that it's a unique sin like all other sexual sins, because the body is defiled or something like that...and yet do you think the laws that used to be on the books forbidding sodomy actually worked? Nice idea yes, but telling 2 consenting adults what they can and can't do in private is like playing God and doesn't work anyways. Listen, I think abortion is awful and I love babies, they are the miracle of the Lord. And I don't believe that women should ever have one, unless absolutely neccessary, life of the mom, etc.
You have probably comitted murder just the same as a woman who's aborted her child. God looks at the heart as well and he's said that whomever has hated anyone in their heart has commmitted murder.
God tells us to not covet they neighbor's anything, yet he Himself says he's a jealous God. He ordered Israelites to murder many people, including women and children (Babies, already born and fully developed).
Not saying anything against God and I don't always agree with him lol but He is who He is.
< Message edited by katydid278 -- 2/1/2008 4:53:18 AM >
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/1/2008 3:45:25 PM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 359
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: katydid278
I know a child is not an "it."
Just because I have a different view on the LEGALITY of abortion than you do does not mean I am a complete idiot.
I did not say that you were nor was I trying to imply that.
quote:
I called the fetus an IT because we are speaking in general terms...as in...there is no he/she because we are speaking hypothetically. I guess I should have been prim and proper and wrote out he/she sorry.
If the subject were the personhood of a slave during pre-Civil War times and assuming you did not know if the slave were a male or female, would you refer to the slave as an “it”? For example, if you believed that the slave was a person, would you say, “It was a person”?
quote:
Example: WHen speaking of a cat you might encounter out on the street you are going to say "Isn't "it" cute? Because you don't know the sex of the animal.
I have no problem referring to animals as “its”. However, I normally do not hear a person referred to as an “it”, unless the person is a child in the womb.
quote:
Forgive me I am cranky today. You haven't changed my mind. I respect your opinion and all...but I still believe that government has no right to get between a woman and her gynecologist. It's medical privacy priviledge.
This is not about the government getting between a woman and her doctor. It is about the government getting between a baby and the person trying to kill the baby. Would you be okay if the killing of children up to some age (such as 12 months) were legal as long as it was done by a doctor? If it were, would you then say that the government has no right to get between a woman [wanting to have her 12 month old child killed] and her doctor?
quote:
God says that homosexual sex is an abomination and specified that it's a unique sin like all other sexual sins, because the body is defiled or something like that...and yet do you think the laws that used to be on the books forbidding sodomy actually worked? Nice idea yes, but telling 2 consenting adults what they can and can't do in private is like playing God and doesn't work anyways.
You are comparing apples to oranges here. Abortion is not a sexual sin. Abortion involves the killing of a child.
quote:
You have probably comitted murder just the same as a woman who's aborted her child. God looks at the heart as well and he's said that whomever has hated anyone in their heart has commmitted murder.
All you are doing here is detracting from the subject at hand. Are you advocating that anyone that has hated someone should be tried as a murderer? Do you really believe that a person that has hated someone should be legally tried and sentenced the same as a person that has cut up a baby?
quote:
God tells us to not covet they neighbor's anything, yet he Himself says he's a jealous God. He ordered Israelites to murder many people, including women and children (Babies, already born and fully developed).
Your comments here show a misunderstanding of Scripture. God’s righteous jealousy has nothing to do with the command God gave to not covet. God’s judgments recorded in the Old Testament were not to murder (all killing is not murder). A discussion of this could easily be a thread of its own and would be off-topic.
quote:
Not saying anything against God and I don't always agree with him lol but He is who He is.
You do realize that not agreeing with God is, at the least, the same as believing that God has not always acted in the best way and, at the worst, believing that God has done wrong. God’s ways are the best ways. All His acts are holy and just. Do you believe God to be less than perfect?
_____________________________
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See for Yourself
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/4/2008 10:17:10 PM
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rhippie
Posts: 627
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
For esample:
- If we make slavery illegal, it will not stop rich people from abusing blacks. They'll still control the land, crops and lives of the blacks they give a tiny wage to.
- Rape has been around for a long time and banning it has never been successful.
- Just because someone doesn't want to ban adults having sex with children, doesn't mean that they're for it. It's been around for a long time and we've never been able to stop it before. Some people just go to some other country where it's tolerated.
If one isn't for making abortion illegal, then one is at some smaller level for it. The tolerance of it's legality is necessary for it to thrive.
The only difference between these things and abortion is that a majority of the country sees abortion as a fundamental human right.
So because the majority think it is acceptable then it's okay???
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Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/4/2008 10:18:31 PM
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rhippie
Posts: 627
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Yeah, and people used to think that way about owning slaves too. Perhaps the abolitionists should have minded their own business?
I don't think it was seen in the same way. Most liberals don't see the right to property as a basic human right.
Especially when the property belongs to someone else!!!
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/18/2008 3:40:03 AM
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mjk1971
Posts: 16
Joined: 6/5/2007
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No. Any more than a Christian can be pro-Hell.
_____________________________
"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."
John 3:16
Never blame Jesus for the things His alleged followers do.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/18/2008 1:01:12 PM
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hawkfan428
Posts: 238
Joined: 1/9/2008
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The following is from a thread I wrote on the Christians for Democrats? post today. I moved it over here for relevance to the topic.
Here's an idea for those of who really want to fight abortion:
1) Quit protesting at clinics and voting for that Republican on the basis of their empty promise to overturn Roe vs. Wade (it hasn't been overturned yet).
2) However, if you want to get legislature involved, do this instead: Ask/petition our elected representatives to write laws that will make adoption easier in this country. Adoption is costly, and it's what's in your bank account, not in your heart, that matters when agencies pick couples to adopt a baby. Try to change that.
3) Start an abortion-alternative ministry at your church to collect baby blankets, diapers, etc, for those who do choose to keep their babies (your ministry also could have links to adoption agencies). Chances are excellent that they were considering abortion because they couldn't afford the baby.
4) If you do have a single pregnant woman at your church, do not point and gossip amongst yourselves about her "loose" morals. After all, how many women have had abortions that you do not know about that you may consider to be high character people. Do, however, make sure that she is aware of the ministry should she need help.
5) If you are approached by a single pregnant woman, don't point out her sins to her. You had better believe that she is already aware of this and doesn't need your reminding of it. If she's coming to you for help, she wants help, not judgement. Judgement will make her run off and likely get an abortion anyways. (kinda falls under that stumbling block thing).
This would be an excellent start to promote abortion-alternatives at a grass-roots level. It's entirely possible that there may already be ministries like this in your area. If that's the case, there's one to get involved with, or, if you would prefer to do it at your church, then by all means start one.
Single, pregnant women are women in need. And what did Jesus do for those in need? He took care of their needs. He didn't run to Pontius Pilate and ask him to start legislating certain forms of sin.
Bottom line here: Overturning Roe vs. Wade does nothing to stop the abortion issue. While it may satisfy the "morality utopia" of certain people, it does nothing to address the side issues related to abortion. If you were to do this as stated above, I guarantee you would save at least one life. As one person put it a couple of pages ago in this thread, if one life is saved then the campaign is all worth it. It would apply to abortion-alternative ministries as well.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/20/2008 3:08:17 AM
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tacitus
Posts: 283
Joined: 5/12/2005
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Sound like good suggestions to me. I would add that if the most rabid anti-abortion crusaders on this message board would:
(a) tone down the spite and vitriol launched at anyone they suspect is the least bit in favor of abortion even in the most limited of circumstances;
(b) quit the childish name-calling of any politician or public figure who doesn't come out as 100% anti-abortion,
and
(c) act like a reasonable human being and actually engage in respectful debate with others on this board
then perhaps they would actually have a chance of persuading some of those around here who are not fully anti-abortion that there may be some merit to their argument. They may think believe you are fully justified in calling someone who supports even very limited abortions a baby-killer, when the same old rant is thrown in people's faces day after day, it has no shock value left. It simply confirms in people's mind that the name-callers are raving lunatics, and that there is no point in even trying to engage in a discussion.
The majority of Americans today are pro-choice to some degree or another, and an even larger majority support abortions in the event of rape, incest, or the health of the mother. Even the ultra-conservative South Dakota couldn't pass a law banning all abortions. No doubt they believed, like the crusaders on this board, that they could not conscientiously write a law that included some abortions. And what happened? Instead of banning all but a handful of abortions in their state, abortion continues to be legal and more abortions are happening every week. But no, purity of conscience was put above pragmatism that could have advanced their cause towards the final banning of most abortions. How many abortions was it worth?
I have no doubt I will get a number of angry replies -- and I know who they'll be from too. But remember, it's hard to open minds when your own mind is welded shut. You may feel that all the rage and anger is justified, and you have every right to feel that way, but to many others it's become nothing but white noise to be ignored and rejected.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/20/2008 12:52:09 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1375
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hawkfan428
The following is from a thread I wrote on the Christians for Democrats? post today. I moved it over here for relevance to the topic.
Here's an idea for those of who really want to fight abortion:
1) Quit protesting at clinics and voting for that Republican on the basis of their empty promise to overturn Roe vs. Wade (it hasn't been overturned yet).
2) However, if you want to get legislature involved, do this instead: Ask/petition our elected representatives to write laws that will make adoption easier in this country. Adoption is costly, and it's what's in your bank account, not in your heart, that matters when agencies pick couples to adopt a baby. Try to change that.
3) Start an abortion-alternative ministry at your church to collect baby blankets, diapers, etc, for those who do choose to keep their babies (your ministry also could have links to adoption agencies). Chances are excellent that they were considering abortion because they couldn't afford the baby.
4) If you do have a single pregnant woman at your church, do not point and gossip amongst yourselves about her "loose" morals. After all, how many women have had abortions that you do not know about that you may consider to be high character people. Do, however, make sure that she is aware of the ministry should she need help.
5) If you are approached by a single pregnant woman, don't point out her sins to her. You had better believe that she is already aware of this and doesn't need your reminding of it. If she's coming to you for help, she wants help, not judgement. Judgement will make her run off and likely get an abortion anyways. (kinda falls under that stumbling block thing).
This would be an excellent start to promote abortion-alternatives at a grass-roots level. It's entirely possible that there may already be ministries like this in your area. If that's the case, there's one to get involved with, or, if you would prefer to do it at your church, then by all means start one.
Single, pregnant women are women in need. And what did Jesus do for those in need? He took care of their needs. He didn't run to Pontius Pilate and ask him to start legislating certain forms of sin.
Bottom line here: Overturning Roe vs. Wade does nothing to stop the abortion issue. While it may satisfy the "morality utopia" of certain people, it does nothing to address the side issues related to abortion. If you were to do this as stated above, I guarantee you would save at least one life. As one person put it a couple of pages ago in this thread, if one life is saved then the campaign is all worth it. It would apply to abortion-alternative ministries as well.
What planet are you from? There are at least a couple dozen of crisis pregnancy centers in the mid-sized metro area I live in. The people who run and support those are made up largely of the same people who work to give the children legal protection as well. Their churches are often key supporters of the centers.
Overturning Death Roe would save millions. I believe abortions doubled in the five years post Death Roe.
Adoption is made more difficult in our country by abortion. Quite frankly, it is a matter of supply and demand. There are more adoptive parents seeking babies than babies needing parents. The children are being killed even though there are waiting parents.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/20/2008 1:02:50 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1375
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
Sound like good suggestions to me. I would add that if the most rabid anti-abortion crusaders on this message board would:
(a) tone down the spite and vitriol launched at anyone they suspect is the least bit in favor of abortion even in the most limited of circumstances;
(b) quit the childish name-calling of any politician or public figure who doesn't come out as 100% anti-abortion,
and
(c) act like a reasonable human being and actually engage in respectful debate with others on this board
then perhaps they would actually have a chance of persuading some of those around here who are not fully anti-abortion that there may be some merit to their argument. They may think believe you are fully justified in calling someone who supports even very limited abortions a baby-killer, when the same old rant is thrown in people's faces day after day, it has no shock value left. It simply confirms in people's mind that the name-callers are raving lunatics, and that there is no point in even trying to engage in a discussion.
The majority of Americans today are pro-choice to some degree or another, and an even larger majority support abortions in the event of rape, incest, or the health of the mother. Even the ultra-conservative South Dakota couldn't pass a law banning all abortions. No doubt they believed, like the crusaders on this board, that they could not conscientiously write a law that included some abortions. And what happened? Instead of banning all but a handful of abortions in their state, abortion continues to be legal and more abortions are happening every week. But no, purity of conscience was put above pragmatism that could have advanced their cause towards the final banning of most abortions. How many abortions was it worth?
I have no doubt I will get a number of angry replies -- and I know who they'll be from too. But remember, it's hard to open minds when your own mind is welded shut. You may feel that all the rage and anger is justified, and you have every right to feel that way, but to many others it's become nothing but white noise to be ignored and rejected.
What disturbs you more, name calling or sucking the brains out of a baby? Ranting or disembowling a live unborn child? I believe it's the former.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/21/2008 7:59:43 AM
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hawkfan428
Posts: 238
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
What planet are you from?
I do believe planet is called Earth. I haven't hurled insults at you, but since you want to go there....
quote:
Overturning Death Roe would save millions. I believe abortions doubled in the five years post Death Roe.
"Death Roe"? Cute buzzword...how extremist! Do you believe abortions have doubled? Sources, please. Don't go there with opinions...
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The people who run and support those are made up largely of the same people who work to give the children legal protection as well. Their churches are often key supporters of the centers.
Good, I'm glad that they are in your area. Do you help out there, or is it easier to whine at politicians?
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Adoption is made more difficult in our country by abortion. Quite frankly, it is a matter of supply and demand. There are more adoptive parents seeking babies than babies needing parents. The children are being killed even though there are waiting parents.
Again, where are your sources on this? Is there actual research on this subject or are you throwing opinions around? And, yes, adoption is expensive! I know of two couples who adopted, and it cost them $30,000 each (These were not international adoptions). And I know other couples that want to adopt but can't afford to do (They don't have $30,000). If it's a "supply and demand" issue, as you state, then cough up the sources on this.
By the way, do you know why Roe vs. Wade won't get overturned? We live in a republic, not a theocracy The people in this country simply don't want it overturned. That is a fact.
I do not disrespect your stance on abortion, but I, like others here, have an issue with your extremism. Do you really believe the name-calling is going to change my mind or tactisus' mind? Or anybody else's mind for that matter? There's a saying that says you attract bees better with honey than you do with vinegar....
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/21/2008 10:44:52 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2909
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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I think I posted in this thread a while back, but I don't remember. If I didn't say it already, I think it's possible but I want to qualify that statement. See below.
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
In response to the topic question....
No...
Supporting murder is not the fruit of the Spirit...
John
I have known Christians (mostly fairly new Christians) who were initially pro-abortion and later convicted by the Holy Spirit about that view. So yes, it's possible.
We do not have perfect understanding at the point of salvation. So there can certainly be a misunderstanding about this and a number of other thrings. Thankfully, the Lord does not let us remain in that kind of thinking.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/21/2008 12:14:08 PM
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Biblefreak
Posts: 617
Joined: 8/10/2006
From: the spirit of God
Status: offline
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I don't see how if God is the creator of life that people somehow have the right to take it.
The way I see it is that life started with Adam & Eve and hasn't stopped since. It only stops when a person is old, sick or murdered.
_____________________________
"I'm blessed, I must confess
My heart is pounding in my chest
Cause this love's the best
I'm just a love addict"
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/21/2008 12:19:28 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1375
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hawkfan428
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What planet are you from?
I do believe planet is called Earth. I haven't hurled insults at you, but since you want to go there....
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Overturning Death Roe would save millions. I believe abortions doubled in the five years post Death Roe.
"Death Roe"? Cute buzzword...how extremist! Do you believe abortions have doubled? Sources, please. Don't go there with opinions...
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The people who run and support those are made up largely of the same people who work to give the children legal protection as well. Their churches are often key supporters of the centers.
Good, I'm glad that they are in your area. Do you help out there, or is it easier to whine at politicians?
quote:
Adoption is made more difficult in our country by abortion. Quite frankly, it is a matter of supply and demand. There are more adoptive parents seeking babies than babies needing parents. The children are being killed even though there are waiting parents.
Again, where are your sources on this? Is there actual research on this subject or are you throwing opinions around? And, yes, adoption is expensive! I know of two couples who adopted, and it cost them $30,000 each (These were not international adoptions). And I know other couples that want to adopt but can't afford to do (They don't have $30,000). If it's a "supply and demand" issue, as you state, then cough up the sources on this.
By the way, do you know why Roe vs. Wade won't get overturned? We live in a republic, not a theocracy The people in this country simply don't want it overturned. That is a fact.
I do not disrespect your stance on abortion, but I, like others here, have an issue with your extremism. Do you really believe the name-calling is going to change my mind or tactisus' mind? Or anybody else's mind for that matter? There's a saying that says you attract bees better with honey than you do with vinegar....
It's perfectly legal to tear apart unborn children piece by piece, but I'm the extremist. Check your moral compass.
I didn't call you or tac a name. I don't "whine at politicians."
I don't have an obligation to educate you. If you're curious about these things then look them up for yourself. I've previously posted references to the annual abortion rate and they prove I'm right about it.
The Alan Guttmacher institute has found that "rate of adoptions of children born to white women declined by 34-37% in states that repealed restrictive abortion laws..." You look it up if you don't believe me.
I'll bet that at one time most people didn't want slavery banned. When Republican Abraham Lincoln first ran for President, the only reason he won was because the Democrats were fighting about how much they loved slavery and split into to parties.
Fortunately our right to live and be free is not a matter for people to vote on and Death Roe may one day be overturned. If people were permitted to vote on such things, there is no way Death Roe would be law today. That's why pro-abortion groups had to go to the courts instead of the people. There's proof. Before sick men made up a phony constitutional right to slaughter the unborn, it was a matter for the states and their representatives to decide. Some hard-hearted states like NY had very liberal abortion laws and lots of abortions. Other, kinder states had laws that protected the innocent.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/21/2008 1:00:13 PM
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hawkfan428
Posts: 238
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline
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I don't "whine at politicians."
Fair enough. So, do you help at the ministries you mentioned? It's far easier to people to complain than it is to help. You never answered my question...
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I didn't call you or tac a name
OK, I'll be technically correct here. By asking what planet am I from was rather insulting, so we'll call it an insult, but hey, whatever floats your boat...
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The Alan Guttmacher institute has found that "rate of adoptions of children born to white women declined by 34-37% in states that repealed restrictive abortion laws..." You look it up if you don't believe me.
That applies to legal abortions and doesn't account for illegal or "back-alley" abortions. If you think people don't do it because it's illegal, you are kidding yourself.
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I'll bet that at one time most people didn't want slavery banned.
Apples and oranges.
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Check your moral compass.
We should all be doing that, not just those who oppose your approach to the abortion issue.
I still hold to the adage that as Christians, the right way to do this is to educate those on the options. When you make it illegal, the back-alley a | | |
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