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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 9/4/2008 8:50:47 PM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Seems like the uniformitarians are getting really excited about this topic. I don't have any information to rain on the parade but I'm gonna try to understand this argument.
1. There are "x" holes in the ground that are all demonstrably meteorite impacts
2. Meteors release "y" energy times the size of the meteor "z".
3. "x" meteor impacts of size "z" times "y" energy would release a total of "A" energy.
4. "A" energy over a 6000ish year period would cook the earth and all life on it.
I suppose this is the argument?
I'm sure there are other details, but AFAIK, yeah, that's the brunt of it.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 9/5/2008 12:51:15 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Seems like the uniformitarians are getting really excited about this topic. I don't have any information to rain on the parade but I'm gonna try to understand this argument.
1. There are "x" holes in the ground that are all demonstrably meteorite impacts
2. Meteors release "y" energy times the size of the meteor "z".
3. "x" meteor impacts of size "z" times "y" energy would release a total of "A" energy.
4. "A" energy over a 6000ish year period would cook the earth and all life on it.
I suppose this is the argument?
I'm sure there are other details, but AFAIK, yeah, that's the brunt of it.
-Dan.
Does AFAIK mean "As Far As I'm Koncerned"?
I think it helps to break these tough topics down like this because it helps realize where the potential problems could be. Any one of the points could have an assumption in it that we're not addressing. So... I chock this one up with the other problems with a young earth timeline (like endogenous retroviruses), the answers to which we may never have.
We probably won't have any assumptions in #1 because we can certainly tell that something came from really high, hit the ground really hard, and left nickel that we can go and extract and put on display. Where I have a problem is with the last 3, particularly number 4. The reason why is because we've never seen a meteorite big enough to cause a mass extinction, and I don't think that we know for sure that one has ever occurred. I don't think we can say for sure what kind of energy the earth is capable of absorbing, and/or what kind of effects a very large meteor would have on the earth. Volcanoes erupt and release very large amounts of energy into the earth, yet the effects that we see are mostly from debris, shockwaves, pyroclastic flows, and smoke, not necessarily heat directly involved in the eruption. I do wonder, though. Are there any meteorite impacts in the area that the ark was supposed to have landed? Any large meteorite impact in that region may settle the case that the ark story is not plausible.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 9/6/2008 2:03:34 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1968
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Does AFAIK mean "As Far As I'm Koncerned"?
As far as I know.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 9/6/2008 7:49:06 AM
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EcclesFruitcake
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quote:
The reason why is because we've never seen a meteorite big enough to cause a mass extinction, and I don't think that we know for sure that one has ever occurred. I don't think we can say for sure what kind of energy the earth is capable of absorbing, and/or what kind of effects a very large meteor would have on the earth.
The impact of Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 on Jupiter in July, 1994 is the largest impact ever witnessed and the amount of kinetic energy released was equivalent to 300 Gigatons of TNT or 18 million Hiroshima bombs.
The dark blemishes inflicted on Jupiter's atmosphere were larger than the size of the Earth and remained for a year. The comet was about 1.5-2km in size *and broke up into 21 fragments some 2 years before impact.
Closer to home...
"One estimate is that the entire population of Earth-crossing asteroids includes some 1500 larger than one kilometer and 135,000 larger than 100 meters in diameter."
Of which only a small fraction have been identified.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 9/6/2008 2:16:15 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EcclesFruitcake
quote:
The reason why is because we've never seen a meteorite big enough to cause a mass extinction, and I don't think that we know for sure that one has ever occurred. I don't think we can say for sure what kind of energy the earth is capable of absorbing, and/or what kind of effects a very large meteor would have on the earth.
The impact of Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 on Jupiter in July, 1994 is the largest impact ever witnessed and the amount of kinetic energy released was equivalent to 300 Gigatons of TNT or 18 million Hiroshima bombs.
The dark blemishes inflicted on Jupiter's atmosphere were larger than the size of the Earth and remained for a year. The comet was about 1.5-2km in size *and broke up into 21 fragments some 2 years before impact.
Closer to home...
"One estimate is that the entire population of Earth-crossing asteroids includes some 1500 larger than one kilometer and 135,000 larger than 100 meters in diameter."
Of which only a small fraction have been identified.
It's a good thing we have those gas giants out there to soak up most of those giga-ton harbingers of death out there.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 9/8/2008 9:46:17 PM
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RobertByers
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All these impact ideas must take into account as to whether it was back then like it is now.
If these impacts came from the post fall war between God and Satan then this would change the results of impacts. They could be reduced in power and so on. God would protect the earth and universe but the war would cause a lot of spill over.
So impact holes fit fine within a creationist concept of earth history by direct bible verses or options generally.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 9/8/2008 9:50:42 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1968
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RobertByers
All these impact ideas must take into account as to whether it was back then like it is now.
If these impacts came from the post fall war between God and Satan then this would change the results of impacts.
What war? And if these strikes happened post-fall, why aren't they mentioned in the Bible or any other historic record? A colossal bombardment like that would surely have been recorded by somebody somewhere, if they weren't vaporized.
quote:
They could be reduced in power and so on. God would protect the earth and universe but the war would cause a lot of spill over.
So impact holes fit fine within a creationist concept of earth history by direct bible verses or options generally.
Their power is estimated from the size of the holes left behind, which is a direct result of the energy that WAS released.
No, the number and magnitude of these impact craters does not fit within a YEC framework.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 9/9/2008 5:42:15 PM
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DanJames
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Not to mention the fact that there is no need for a war between Satan's hordes and the angels of God between the first two verses of Genesis.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 9/10/2008 1:29:17 AM
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RobertByers
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: RobertByers
All these impact ideas must take into account as to whether it was back then like it is now.
If these impacts came from the post fall war between God and Satan then this would change the results of impacts.
What war? And if these strikes happened post-fall, why aren't they mentioned in the Bible or any other historic record? A colossal bombardment like that would surely have been recorded by somebody somewhere, if they weren't vaporized.
quote:
They could be reduced in power and so on. God would protect the earth and universe but the war would cause a lot of spill over.
So impact holes fit fine within a creationist concept of earth history by direct bible verses or options generally.
Their power is estimated from the size of the holes left behind, which is a direct result of the energy that WAS released.
No, the number and magnitude of these impact craters does not fit within a YEC framework.
-Dan.
The war is mentioned in revelation and it seems to indicate that this war is related to the demons/Satan being thrown out of heaven. This would be after the fall. The verses talk about a third of the stars being thrown to earth. Earth could mean matter generally or indeed this planet.
Yet being a special war with defenders it is reasonable to presume a effective defence agains the severity of the blows.
All that is found are holes. How big a blast is open to options.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 9/10/2008 7:56:30 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1968
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RobertByers
All that is found are holes. How big a blast is open to options.
No. Not really. The holes are not the size of the original meteors, they're much bigger than the meteors. We look at the hole and determine how much energy it would have taken to create them and then figure out what other kinds of effects that much energy would have had.
If the impact of the meteors was dampened, the holes would be smaller.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 9/12/2008 12:50:45 AM
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RobertByers
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: RobertByers
All that is found are holes. How big a blast is open to options.
No. Not really. The holes are not the size of the original meteors, they're much bigger than the meteors. We look at the hole and determine how much energy it would have taken to create them and then figure out what other kinds of effects that much energy would have had.
If the impact of the meteors was dampened, the holes would be smaller.
-Dan.
Into the equation must go the special case of the origin of the impact. i suggest a war in the heavens with earth meant to be destroyed. Therefore the earth is being protected and when a rock hits it need not be allowed to have the same energy as its size might hint at. the hole might be from the size of the rock alone and all other energy be smothered. its a special case if my reading of scripture is accurate.
Equation is everything.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 9/13/2008 8:46:25 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1968
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RobertByers
Into the equation must go the special case of the origin of the impact. i suggest a war in the heavens with earth meant to be destroyed. Therefore the earth is being protected and when a rock hits it need not be allowed to have the same energy as its size might hint at. the hole might be from the size of the rock alone and all other energy be smothered. its a special case if my reading of scripture is accurate.
Equation is everything.
No, the hole is not the size of the rock that hit. If the rock hit with that little energy, it would still be there, but it's not. Why not? Because it vaporized. Also, if the rock hit with that little energy, there would not be any shocked quartz found at the impact site, yet there is. In fact, that's the hallmark of a meteor impact.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 9/17/2008 9:07:30 PM
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RobertByers
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: RobertByers
Into the equation must go the special case of the origin of the impact. i suggest a war in the heavens with earth meant to be destroyed. Therefore the earth is being protected and when a rock hits it need not be allowed to have the same energy as its size might hint at. the hole might be from the size of the rock alone and all other energy be smothered. its a special case if my reading of scripture is accurate.
Equation is everything.
No, the hole is not the size of the rock that hit. If the rock hit with that little energy, it would still be there, but it's not. Why not? Because it vaporized. Also, if the rock hit with that little energy, there would not be any shocked quartz found at the impact site, yet there is. In fact, that's the hallmark of a meteor impact.
-Dan.
If my reading of the verses is right then its a special case of a defence against attack. so the power from these impacts would be smothered if needed to be to preserve earth. Simple.
I don'r know what a rock into the ground would do. You only know by after the fact. Lots of options of how to smother energy. perhaps these holes are from much smaller impacts then would if they hit today.
The point is that these impacts were post fall and most pre flood. so it must of been from a quick event like a cosmic war. Beating up the earth a bit but not too much. The earth was defended from any serious destruction.
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RE: Meteorite Impacts - 9/18/2008 9:59:56 AM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1062
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RobertByers
so the power from these impacts would be smothered if needed to be to preserve earth. Simple.
The size and depth and geology of the craters provide information on how big the power of the impacts was. If we have a crater 10 km across, that suggests that the meteorites was so-and-so big, say 10 tons. If the power were smothered, then a meteorite that size would only make a crater 1 km across. That may hypothetically be the case, but that doesn't eliminate the 10 km crater. Presumably that would have been created by a meteorite that weighed 100 tons, but that was smothered down to 'only' a 10 ton crater. That shifts the size of the original meteorites, but it doesn't change the size of the effects on the earth - the craters themselves, which testify to a certain amount of power.
It's as though you were a forensic scientist examining a skull with a bullet-hole through it. The forensic tests tell you that the hole was made by a .22 slug, but you (for some reason) hypothesize that it was actually a .45 slug, but the impact was 'smothered' to preserve the victim. The hole in the head shows that the victim was not preserved - the size of the craters show that the earth could not be preserved if it all happened in a short time.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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