Catholic Church in Prophecy? (Full Version)

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Fritzpw_Admin -> Catholic Church in Prophecy? (4/11/2005 2:05:59 PM)

There are two camps on this subject... those who say the Church is in prophecy in a good light and those who say it is in a bad light.
What is your support for your stance?

How do you translate the Catholic church as it is reflected in prophecy?

WARNING
This topic is highly controversial and will require cool heads and thick skins. Please be courteous and respectful to those who disagree with your stance on this subject.



Mecha -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (4/11/2005 10:33:52 PM)

The way I see it, the leadership of the catholic church will help to usher in the coming Anti-Christ. I believe they will be pivotal in the religion of the False Prophet. Now with that being said, I believe that an anti-pope would lead an underground church. Anti-popes were a reality not to long ago, where unelected catholics tried to seize control of the church and for a brief time were able to.



VF19AExcalibur -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (4/12/2005 6:30:02 AM)

There are a lot of Catholics in name only, just as there are a lot of Baptists and Methodists and Lutherans, et al. ad nauseum, in name only. Besides which, being a Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, etc., doesn't mean you are saved either. It takes the power of the blood of Christ to do that. I think that there are going to be millions of "professing" Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc., who will be left behind because, even though they may have gone to church every Sunday, they just didn't believe. Out of these, both Catholic and Protestant, may come the foundation of the religion of the False Prophet. There will be a ecumenical blend of effervescent nonsense that will decieve people into feeling good about turning their lives over to the Antichrist. Against these will stand the Two Witnesses, the 144000 Jewish witnesses, and the Tribulation Saints.



berean_man -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (4/14/2005 2:06:23 AM)

The Beast Of Revelation:

Rev 11:7 And2 when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Below I am posting Albert Barnes'commentary on the Beast of
Rev 11:7
I found it quite interesting and a very plausable explanation of the beast. I do realize it may be very contoversial but am not trolling, merely seeking to gather the thoughts and opinions of others on this topic.


The beast - This is the first time in the Book of Revelation in which what is here called “the beast” is mentioned, and which has so important an agency in the events which it is said would occur. It is repeatedly mentioned in the course of the book, and always with similar characteristics, and as referring to the same object. Here it is mentioned as “ascending out of the bottomless pit”; in Rev_13:1, as “rising up out of the sea”; in Rev_13:11, as “coming up out of the earth.” It is also mentioned with characteristics appropriate to such an origin, in Rev_13:2-4 (twice), Rev_13:11, Rev_13:12 (twice), Rev_13:14 (twice), Rev_13:15 (twice), 17, 18; Rev_14:9, Rev_14:11; Rev_15:2; Rev_16:2, Rev_16:10, Rev_16:13; Rev_17:3, Rev_17:7-8 (twice), 11, 12, 13, 16, 17; Rev_19:19-20 (twice); Rev_20:4, Rev_20:9. The word used here - θηρίον thērion - means properly “a beast, a wild beast,” Mar_1:13; Act_10:12; Act_11:6; Act_28:4-5; Heb_12:20; Jam_3:7; Rev_6:8. It is once used tropically of brutal or savage men, Tit_1:12. Elsewhere, in the passages above referred to in the Apocalypse, it is used symbolically. As employed in the Book of Revelation, the characteristics of the “beast” are strongly marked:
(a) It has its origin from beneath - in the bottomless pit; the sea; the earth, Rev_11:7; Rev_13:1, Rev_13:11.
(b) It has great power, Rev_13:4, Rev_13:12; Rev_17:12-13.
(c) It claims and receives worship, Rev_13:3, Rev_13:12, Rev_13:14-15; Rev_14:9, Rev_14:11.
(d) It has a certain “seat” or throne from whence its power proceeds, Rev_16:10.
(e) It is of scarlet color, Rev_17:3.
(f) It receives power conferred upon it by the kings of the earth, Rev_17:13,
(g) It has a mark by which it is known, Rev_13:17; Rev_19:20.
(h) It has a certain “number”; that is, there are certain mystical letters or figures which so express its name that it may be known, Rev_13:17-18.
These things serve to characterize the “beast” as distinguished from all other things, and they are so numerous and definite, that it would seem to have been intended to make it easy to understand what was meant when the power referred to should appear. In regard to the origin of the imagery here, there can be no reasonable doubt that it is to be traced to Daniel, and that the writer here means to describe the same “beast” which Daniel refers to in Rev_7:7. The evidence of this must be clear to anyone who will compare the description in Daniel Rev. 7 with the minute details in the book of Revelation. No one, I think, can doubt that John means to carry forward the description ill Daniel, and to apply it to new manifestations of the same great and terrific power - the power of the fourth monarchy - on the earth. For full evidence that the representation in Daniel refers to the Roman power prolonged and perpetuated in the papal dominion, I must refer the reader to the notes on Dan_7:25. It may be assumed here that the opinion there defended is correct, and consequently it may be assumed that the “beast” of this book refers to the papal power.



sdaw -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (4/14/2005 5:23:25 AM)

Dear berean_man,

When an expositor concludes "it may be assumed" I think his evidence is dubious, and he knows it.

Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!



berean_man -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (4/14/2005 8:56:34 AM)

Dear sdaw,

"There are two camps on this subject... those who say the Church is in prophecy in a good light and those who say it is in a bad light.
What is your support for your stance?"

"How do you translate the Catholic church as it is reflected in prophecy?"


Personaly my tent pegs are not yet planted in either camp, yet tend to lean toward taking up ground in the latter camp.
This is just one of many pieces of the puzzle that have me leaning in that direction.
I am sure that many more pieces to to the puzzle will be put into place as this forum continues but for now would just like to hear more opinions on this one.



Jipsah -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (4/14/2005 9:05:34 AM)

quote:

It may be assumed here that the opinion there defended is correct


Just as it may be assumed that every word that flows from my keyboard is altogether free from error, right?

Pin the tail on the antichrist, the favorite Christian party game.



sdaw -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (4/14/2005 11:40:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: berean_man

Dear sdaw,

"There are two camps on this subject... those who say the Church is in prophecy in a good light and those who say it is in a bad light.
What is your support for your stance?"

"How do you translate the Catholic church as it is reflected in prophecy?"


Personaly my tent pegs are not yet planted in either camp, yet tend to lean toward taking up ground in the latter camp.
This is just one of many pieces of the puzzle that have me leaning in that direction.
I am sure that many more pieces to to the puzzle will be put into place as this forum continues but for now would just like to hear more opinions on this one.


Dear berean-man,

I know the Antichrist is not Catholic. It's Prince Charles. It says so right here. http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/crest.html
He's Anglican, the head of the church in fact. So, on this evidence we may assume he's the one.

Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!



Radlad72 -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (4/15/2005 5:10:38 AM)

The Catholic institution I believe will be the 1st beast of Revelation and the USA will be the second.



sdaw -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (4/15/2005 6:27:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Radlad72

The Catholic institution I believe will be the 1st beast of Revelation and the USA will be the second.


Dear Radlad,

Why do you believe this!

Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!



berean_man -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (4/15/2005 8:22:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sdaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: berean_man

Dear sdaw,

"There are two camps on this subject... those who say the Church is in prophecy in a good light and those who say it is in a bad light.
What is your support for your stance?"

"How do you translate the Catholic church as it is reflected in prophecy?"


Personaly my tent pegs are not yet planted in either camp, yet tend to lean toward taking up ground in the latter camp.
This is just one of many pieces of the puzzle that have me leaning in that direction.
I am sure that many more pieces to to the puzzle will be put into place as this forum continues but for now would just like to hear more opinions on this one.


Dear berean-man,

I know the Antichrist is not Catholic. It's Prince Charles. It says so right here. http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/crest.html
He's Anglican, the head of the church in fact. So, on this evidence we may assume he's the one.

Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!



sdaw,

You may be far more hard pressed to prove your position on that theory however by findind scriptures that you believe point to the guy with the ears!



sdaw -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (4/15/2005 12:35:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: berean_man

quote:

ORIGINAL: sdaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: berean_man

Dear sdaw,

"There are two camps on this subject... those who say the Church is in prophecy in a good light and those who say it is in a bad light.
What is your support for your stance?"

"How do you translate the Catholic church as it is reflected in prophecy?"


Personaly my tent pegs are not yet planted in either camp, yet tend to lean toward taking up ground in the latter camp.
This is just one of many pieces of the puzzle that have me leaning in that direction.
I am sure that many more pieces to to the puzzle will be put into place as this forum continues but for now would just like to hear more opinions on this one.


Dear berean-man,

I know the Antichrist is not Catholic. It's Prince Charles. It says so right here. http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/crest.html
He's Anglican, the head of the church in fact. So, on this evidence we may assume he's the one.

Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!



sdaw,

You may be far more hard pressed to prove your position on that theory however by findind scriptures that you believe point to the guy with the ears!


Dear berean-man,
All one needs is a little imagination, free time, and specious reasoning to prove, scripturally of course, that almost anyone,anywhere is the Antichrist.

Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!



speedyzap -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (4/17/2005 1:40:41 PM)

Dear Fritz,
The Catholic Church in my mind, is very large and complex. Just as in say the Baptist churches there are many different view points (pentecostal, evangelical, etc.) so there are some individual Catholic priests who hold to grace and a truer gospel.

Are all Catholics non-Christian? Are most Catholics Christian or just some? One thing we all know is that the Catholic Church has had a somewhat horrible history - known for the inquisitions and the martyring of many true Christians for which Pope Paul not so long ago apologised for, but not blaming it directly on the Catholic Church or the Vatican, but on "our children".

Revelation Chapt. 17 speaks of "the Babylonian Mystery Religion" and the "Mother of Harlots" - many connect this with the Vatican or the Catholic Church, some say it is the USA, some say it refers to the Catholic church in Rev. Ch. 17 as religious Babylon and in Rev. chapter 18 as economic Babylon. If the Catholic church is the religious babylon described in Rev Ch. 17 - then it will be destroyed by the beast power near the end of the beasts rule(Rev 17:15-18 - burn her with fire).

If the Catholic Church/Vatican is NOT the religious Babylon/Harlot of Rev 17, then how is the Beast/anti-christ at his beginning, going to control and kill its saints and still establish his beastly kingdom? Did you see all the people who came out to at Pope Paul's funeral? Did you see all the leaders (kings) of the earth pay homage to him - including Prince Charles and the two Bush presidents (including Clinton), including muslim leaders and European leaders?? Did you see the great emotion in the eyes of many,young and old there, which could one day be manipulated for good or for bad? Whenever I see this WORLD paying homage to a man, I am very suspicious that it is from God and Christ.

I believe that the Vatican will have to be viewed with a critical eye, by any true Christian, until Christ returns, because of its dubious history and works oriented traditions of men, its preference for the catechism over the bible in its schools and churches, its heirarchical structure and mixing church with state (and at one time being the state in dark age Europe). The need for priests as intermediaries to God via confession and the sacraments. Not to mention its sexual abuse of young people in their care/ authority.

However, I tend to believe there are individual true Christians in the Catholic church, who hold to the belief structure in Christ, which makes them true Christians, although at times, somewhat works oriented and thus grieving the Holy Spirit.

Someone asked me recently, if the Catholic church and the Pope are descendant from the Apostle Peter. My unlearned answer was, "I doubt it and that the Apostle Peter might role in his grave if he saw its history". How connected the Catholic chuch was to the original apostles and it's true christians, I am not 100% sure.



sdaw -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (4/17/2005 1:59:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: speedyzap

Dear Fritz,
The Catholic Church in my mind, is very large and complex. Just as in say the Baptist churches there are many different view points (pentecostal, evangelical, etc.) so there are some individual Catholic priests who hold to grace and a truer gospel.

Are all Catholics non-Christian? Are most Catholics Christian or just some? One thing we all know is that the Catholic Church has had a somewhat horrible history - known for the inquisitions and the martyring of many true Christians for which Pope Paul not so long ago apologised for, but not blaming it directly on the Catholic Church or the Vatican, but on "our children".

Revelation Chapt. 17 speaks of "the Babylonian Mystery Religion" and the "Mother of Harlots" - many connect this with the Vatican or the Catholic Church, some say it is the USA, some say it refers to the Catholic church in Rev. Ch. 17 as religious Babylon and in Rev. chapter 18 as economic Babylon. If the Catholic church is the religious babylon described in Rev Ch. 17 - then it will be destroyed by the beast power near the end of the beasts rule(Rev 17:15-18 - burn her with fire).

If the Catholic Church/Vatican is NOT the religious Babylon/Harlot of Rev 17, then how is the Beast/anti-christ at his beginning, going to control and kill its saints and still establish his beastly kingdom? Did you see all the people who came out to at Pope Paul's funeral? Did you see all the leaders (kings) of the earth pay homage to him - including Prince Charles and the two Bush presidents (including Clinton), including muslim leaders and European leaders?? Whenever I see this world paying homage to a man, I am very suspicious that it is from God and Christ.

I believe that the Vatican will have to be viewed with a critical eye, by any true Christian, until Christ returns, because of its dubious history and works oriented traditions of men, its preference for the catechism over the bible in its schools and churches. Not to mention its sexual abuse of young people in their care/ authority.

However, I tend to believe there are individual true Christians in the Catholic church, who hold to the belief structure in Christ, which makes them true Christians, although somewhat works oriented and thus grieving the Holy Spirit.


Dear Speedyzap,

Oh, please. . .

Did you see all the people who came to President Reagan's funeral? Do you think it is from the devil that they can to honor a good man?

Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord!



speedyzap -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (4/17/2005 2:16:03 PM)

SDAW,
Fair comment from you on this topic.

However, I don't remember anything of this ground breaking size and scope with its media coverage and emotion. This Pope seemed a fairly decent man from my limited perspective.

I am reasonably open-minded on the subject.

Good to see someone on-line.

Best wishes.



Sleeker -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (4/17/2005 5:17:33 PM)

quote:

Someone asked me recently, if the Catholic church and the Pope are descendant from the Apostle Peter. My unlearned answer was, "I doubt it and that the Apostle Peter might role in his grave if he saw its history". How connected the Catholic chuch was to the original apostles and it's true christians, I am not 100% sure.


You're being a little unfair to the Roman Catholic Church. There only was the Roman Catholic Church at the time of most of the bad things in history, so everything that they did wrong, Christianity did wrong. Protestants, Roman Catholics, and the Greek Orthodoxy are all guilty of something in the past.

quote:

One thing we all know is that the Catholic Church has had a somewhat horrible history - known for the inquisitions and the martyring of many true Christians for which Pope Paul not so long ago apologised for, but not blaming it directly on the Catholic Church or the Vatican, but on "our children".


It wasn't the Roman Catholic Church that killed off people. Instead, they were individuals who called themselves Roman Catholics who did it. The other two branches of Christianity don't have great histories either, but I'm not going to judge the modern Protestants or the Greek Orthodox for what their church did in its history. Also, it's silly to blame just the Roman Catholic branch of Christianity for stuff that happened when there was only one branch.



Mawilliams -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (5/10/2005 12:08:34 AM)

I've been posting on "The Last Disciple" and the "Left Behind" series. I have written reviews of "The Last Disciple" and of several volumes of the "Left Behind" series. Plus I wrote two books myself trying to make sense of Revelations. In a nutshell, I believe in a preterist interpretation. The Church Christ started on Peter was never overcome by the gates of hell, although many individual churchmen and believers fell far short of what was expected of them. The same Church is still on Earth trying to the best of its ability to continue preaching the teachings of Christ. It, the Church of Christ, in now faced with every kind of contradiction, beaten down on every side, by friend and foe alike. How close will that take us to the final conflict when the spirit of Antichrist will try to refute everything Christ stands for?

Does anyone realize that a preterist interpretation, like that in "The Last Disciple" is more consistent with Catholic thinking than the futurist interpretation featured in the "Left Behind" series? A futurist interpretation makes one think that the Catholic Church missed its mission, and Christ's objectives have to restart sometime in the future.

A preterist interpretation would make one think that the Catholic Church, despite the misconduct of some of its clergy, never abandoned its mission. The work of Christ started when the Church started (preterist interpretation). Souls of people have been going to heaven to work with Christ ever since Christ opened the gates of heaven. At the end of the world, those remaining will be "raptured" to join the others. The tribulation struck the unbelieving Judeans when they tried to destroy the Church of Jesus Christ. There was a millennial (one thousand year) kingdom. It started when the entire Roman Empire accepted the religion of Jesus Christ, like the known Western World became Christian. It was a political Christian kingdom here on earth, made up of far less than perfect sinners, but a political Christian kingdom anyway. It lasted more than a thousand years until the Reformation.

Whatever side of the fence you're on, the Reformation destroyed the Christian political kingdom and splintered the teachings of Christ into thousands of contradictory opinions. Since then, what was left of the Christian political kingdom has fought war after war, and its people have argued so much about the teachings of Christ, that Christianity has lost its credibility. Today, critics of Christianity tell us that we are in the "Post-Christian" era. Today many political leaders work toward the eradication of all Christian symbols from our cultures.

Wouldn't the above seem like the release of Satan to destroy the teachings of Christ? If true, wouldn't we be a lot closer to the Final Judgment than the proponents of a futurist interpretation would propose? I recommend reading "The Last Disciple" and other books with a preterist interpretation, like “Revelation and the Fall of Judea” and “Prophet and Historian: John and Josephus,” all available through Amazon.


Maurice A. Williams



behold -> RE: THE WHOLE Church in Prophecy? (5/10/2005 1:17:40 AM)

Revelation 3:16 - So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Apparently, the last church AS A WHOLE tastes like a warm urine sample. And I think MAYBE this has something to do with "MANY are called, but FEW are chosen." In grade school we are all taught that "MANY" is WAY MORE than "FEW".

With that said, 51% or more of EVERY denomination is quite likely fit for nothing more than the vomit bag. Hey, the truth is a sword, a sword wounds, a wound hurts.

Want to avoid being placed in a vomit bag, WALK UPRIGHT FROM THIS DAY FORWARD, PERIOD !!!



caur -> RE: THE WHOLE Church in Prophecy? (5/13/2005 4:27:12 PM)

As far as the Catholic denomination in prophecy, I think of the Catholics as just another denomination of Christianity. What is hard for me is that the evangelical denominations (ok, to be fair, only a LOT of them) teach that the Catholic church is the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth. What some like to teach is that since the protestant denominations sprang from the Reformation, then it stands to reason that the Catholic denomination is the Mother of Harlots and the Protestant denominations are the Harlots themselves. While this makes a certain sense, especially in light of the fact that, as Christians, we follow Christ and not a name above a door, I can't help but think that this is all just religious posturing.

Personally, as I see world events unfold and read more prophecy, I truly begin to wonder about what role Islam has in all of this, especially considering that they are specifically mentioned as being armies that have surrounded Jerusalem in the past and in the future.

What is most likely to be the case is that the Apostasy mentioned in 2 Thess is going to be a major seperating of the wheat and the chaff and is going to encompass ALL Christian denominations, since they are denominations, after all. The true Body will become more and more united since Christ is in control of His Church and the "so-called" Christians are going to follow after the Beast with the rest of the world. Religion is going to save no one. Only by having a good relationship with Christ is anyone going to be saved. It is not what you are on the outside that counts. It is who you are on the inside. It brings me to an understanding about the scriptures that urge us to make our calling and election sure.



behold -> RE: THE WHOLE Church in Prophecy? (5/13/2005 10:35:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caur

Personally, as I see world events unfold and read more prophecy, I truly begin to wonder about what role Islam has in all of this, especially considering that they are specifically mentioned as being armies that have surrounded Jerusalem in the past and in the future.


Like the majority of christians, they too will go up against Christ, and that too has been orchestrated by the enemy via muslim prophecies. They to have an end time scenario which includes Dajjal, the Dark Messiah. In their prophecies, it is NOT ALLAH that will defeat Dajjal, but the followers of Allah. This Dajjal will be in Judea, and will lead the Jews. So, at the exact same time that 2 billion christians are calling Christ, "the antichrist", so also will the 1 billion muslims be calling Him Dajjal. The 2 groups will join together against Him, one fearing what they've been taught "the antichrist" will do to them, the other thinking it is a mandate from their God. It's the perfect setup, and it's been in progress now for centuries.



skypair -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (9/7/2005 8:57:35 AM)

Radlad,

I'm with you. In fact, I believe parts of Rev 17 and 18 are PRETRIB events/history (17:1-7 was at Korazim in 2000 and 18:1-4 is just prior to the rapture call "Come out of her My people.") I also find that "last Babylon" which resides in Babylon, Iraq is Rev 18:9-24.

Not to mention that the Rev 6 :1 AC rides forth like Christ on a white horse symbolic of "false Christianity.

For those interested in pursuing the Simon Pater notion of the origins of the Catholic Church, here's a website Simon Magus

skypair



skypair -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (9/7/2005 9:13:56 AM)

For those seeking to find out how Islam enters the picture ~~

There are 4 horses of the Apocalypse -- they are 4 unitfying spiritual kingdoms.

1) The white horse is false Christianity -- conquors by "peace."

2) The red horse is Islam -- takes peace from the tribulation earth (Duh, same as now!).

3) The black horse is atheist Russia -- PC leaders eat "wine and oil" while the masses pay days work for days food (communism revived).

4) The pale horse is Israel -- recovering from PLO disease and having a "covenant with death and hell," Isa 28:15.

This arrangement is grounded in 1) Dan 11:40-41, 3 kings John NEVER mentions (?); 2) Zech 6:1-8, notice the order that the chariots come into Israel thru the "2 mountains of brass" is same as they come at Israel in Dan 11:40-41; and 3) in the 7 dispensations -- white for Adam/innocence lost, red for Cain/slaying brother and taking peace from earth, black for Nimrod/human gov't gone humanist, and pale for Israel/law violated.
There is also correspondence of the last 3 seals that is beyond the topic we're studying here.

skypair



tony.nz -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (9/7/2005 8:14:02 PM)

Skypair

The websit link you provided to Simon Magis was very interesting. I always assumed that Peter was the "first bishop of Rome", but that things went a bit haywire after his time. However, the evidence presented from the bible in particular is pretty convincing, it seems that the whole of the RC Church was founded on a lie.

In view of the blasphemous titles of the pope, who by his title and (assumed) authority stands between man and God, and the Babylonian doctrines of that church, I am rethinking (again) my position. We shall know them by their fruit, after all.

It seems that the Babylonian religion metamorphised, taking on the cloak of Christianity. If it is true (as it most certainly is), that the only way to the Father is through Christ, and their is no mediator between man and God, except Christ, then the truth in regard to those under the popes wings is very sad.

The path is indeed narrow.



teleosis -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (9/7/2005 8:27:12 PM)

I agree, great wesite skypair.

I saved it to my religion folder. The paper: Peter Was NOT The First Pope! was very good at showing the Scriptural basis which evidences that Peter was not in Rome at all.

Mark T.



CameronF -> RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? (9/8/2005 12:53:05 AM)

Naturally, this all depends on one's stand:

Historicists would be defined by calling the Pope the Antichrist and seeing Revelation as unfolding history. Most of the Reformers like Luther and Wesley were in this camp.

Preterists believe it all happened in 70 AD so they would probably not repond here or post a [8D] face. They generally are also post-millennialists and believe the world's getting better and will be evangilized.

Spiritualists tend to see Revelation as recurrent themes of spiritual import and so making Revelation applicable to all eras. The do not see the Pope as a bad office but leave it to each person. Most RCCs are in this camp and of course that makes the amillennialists too.

Futurists prefer to understand 2nd Coming prophecies in the same sense as 1st Coming prophecies and so look for more literal fulfillments and part of the literal associations are cities with seven hills refering to Rome and false prophets. Of course Rome is not the only city with seven hills or false prophets. Jerusalem has seven core hills and plenty of false prophets. Seattle has seven hills, I think San Francisco too and what about all the .. you know. The point is that there is a limit to literal associations and speculations have to be open-ended



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