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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/4/2006 4:59:26 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hagnismos
Oh, here see, give God a chance and He reminds you of something,
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time." 1 Timothy 2:5,6
Isn't that neat how the holy Spirit put that little verse in the writings of Paul. I would love to see how you twist that one to allow Mary to be a co-Mediator and the Pope to bethe vicar of Christ. Lurker, thou art decieved!
"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4)
So let me get this straight, I can't ask for the Jesus' mother to pray for me because there's but one mediator. But at the same time, it makes sense to ask others to pray for you as mediators....
That does not make sense, especially in light of the previous 4 verses where Pual himself exhorts us to act as mediators for one another.
quote:
"the leader of the Catholic church is defined by the faith as the vicar of Jesus Christ [and is accepted as such by believers]. the Pope is considered the man on earth who represents the son of God, who"takes the place of"the second person of the omnipotent God of the Trinity."
- from"crossing the threshold of hope"by Pope John Paul2
O_o
You can't be serious. You honestly think that this verse proves that the pope claims to BE God?
This very passage disproves that assumption! Note the phrase, "represents the Son of God." That's what vicars do, when the person who they're the vicar of is away, the act in his stead. They aren't the person they're acting on behalf of, but they have been granted authority by said person to act on their behalf. Jesus Himself is recorded in the gospels as appointing Peter to "Feed my sheep." and Peter is also given the keys to the kingdom of heaven, in other words, an office to act as the representative of Christ. Christ is not here on Earth, He has risen and ascended into Heaven. But in His inifinite mercy He has appointed Peter and Peter's successors to guide the Church here on Earth.
quote:
I think a real eye opener would be for each of you to find a born again Christian that has came from the Roman Catholic Church. Find out what they knew about Christ before they found new life.
Actually, I've found more devoted Christians as a Catholic than I ever encountered in my time as a Protestant. That's not to say that I didn't encounter devout Protestants. I'm still nowhere near as humble and devoted a servant of Christ as my Southern Baptist grandmother. However, I've encountered quite a few people who fit your description, and sadly, their recollections of what the Church teaches -vs- what the Church actually teaches are not often in sync.
I'll state it again, after hearing the claims made by the Catholic Church, as well as the claims made against it, and after thorough (and ongoing) research, I've yet to find ANY credible claims against the Catholic Church that stand up to the facts. All too often there are claims made against the Church that are based on misunderstandings, half truths, and outright lies.
I have found the true faith, and I will rejoice in Christ my saviour for leading me to His Church. I sincerely hope that you will one day learn the truth of the Catholic Church's claims. It's been a most wonderous, and humbling experience.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/4/2006 10:55:42 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1971
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
Protestants Hi Lurker,
I’ll have to agree with you, not everyone who professes to be a Christian is one, at least IMO.
People go to church for many different reasons and sadly knowing Christ is not always the reason. It’s amazing how one can set through the service every Sunday morning of their life and never be touched. And then of course, there are churches who never lead their congregation to the truth to begin with.
Regarding the RCC, there are so many things that one can point to, that make one suspect. I always hesitate to use these as examples because they are someone else’s opinion and not always fact from the RCC itself.
The one frightening thing regarding the pope is that Catholics see him as being Omnipotent (which he claims to be) and he can say or do no wrong. His word is law, so who needs to turn to God or Christ. If he says another religion is OK, then people will believe him. This puts him in position to introduce the antichrist, even the prophecies of St. Malachy say the last pope will be the False Prophet, I sure you have read this.
In Christ!
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/4/2006 11:52:53 AM
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joefen
Posts: 109
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hagnismos
quote:
ORIGINAL: joefen
Ever notice how the length of 'this generation' is growing before our eyes?? 40 yrs has always been the accepted length of time for a generation. That's why all the rapturist were gearing up for 1988 (1948 formation +40 yrs). Well, that came and went, so they moved the start date to 1967, which puts the rapture at 2007. Well, no sign of a rebuilt temple on the horizon, and although every daily headline is interpreted as another fulfillment of something, 2007 will come and go also.
So now, we get a stretching of generation to 'keep hope alive' as someone once said. Now a generation is the full lifespan of an adult from 13-90?
If you want to find out what 'this generation' of Matt 24:34 means, why not look at all the other times 'this generation' (Gr. genea) was used in the Gospels alone. (Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 18:8; 17:25; 21:32.) Specifically, look how Jesus used the word just before using it in the Olivet discourse when He was excoriating the scribes and pharisees in the Temple in Matt 23:
Matt23:32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' [guilt.] 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: [some] of them you will kill and crucify, and [some] of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation [genea]. .
Peace to you all.
It seems clear that you are some type of pretearist. Fine, you beleive what you like. but at least state it up front. It's just courtesy. Trying to draw people to your point of view by questions that lead nowhere near your stand unless you have special interpretations of them is just a waste of people's time. Whatever you believe just say it! I think it is completely unrealistic to see in Scripture a notion that all things were fulfiled before 70 AD. It makes no sense because the world is not perfected, not by a long shot, and the true church does not rule. . . . . As far as I can tell pretearism falls under Paul's admonishen in Colossians to watch for people who get hung up on pet doctrine not essential to salvation.
Does you point of view matter for salvation? So then stand on it or don't, but don't skulk around and sell your ideas to the uninformed as though discovered Eldorado.
Patience is one thing but rebuking error is another. But then we don;t even know what you believe Joefen, you refuse to come out of the shadows and state it plainly.
Wow, take it easy Hag's. For the record, I never concealed my view that much more of prophesy was fulfilled in the 1st century than many today believe. My posts back to you explaining how Peter in Acts 2 said they were in the last days told you that. I'm not 'skulking' and I have no interest whatsoever in 'selling my ideas to the uninformed’. I didn't discover fulfilled eschatology, it's been around long before premillenial dispensationalism was 'discovered' in the 1800s.
Questions are good. They generate study in His Word and refine and correct positions if we are open to that. But I know that approach is not for everyone. Some have it all figured out. I admit I don’t. I ask questions to see if the responses shed light on certain passages and give insight on an interpretation that I have not heard. That’s how we grow. I am interested in what you all have found in your studies. I’m not at all interested in changing anyone’s mind.
It is unanswered questions that lead nowhere. I asked whether those believing WE are in the last days thought that Peter and Paul and John and the writer of Hebrews were wrong since they all taught that they themselves were in the last days and the end of the age was upon them - and I gave a bunch of verses that refer. No response, but I didn't accuse anyone of hiding 'in the shadows'. Many verses indicate that they were at the end of the age, I have not seen any that say the last days/end of the age was anything but ‘near’, ‘at hand’, ‘at the door’, ‘coming quickly’, ‘soon’, or happening before ‘this generation’ passed away. Feel free to provide them.
No one said one's interpretation of eschatology is a matter of salvation. I hope you don't think so. I stand on my view the same as you do on yours. We just look at the same verses and see different things. When I read:
Romans 16:25-27. Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations (ethnos), according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—— to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
Romans 1:8. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Col. 1:5-6. ...the gospel, which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
Col. 1:23. if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
I believe Paul said Matt 24:14 was fulfilled - some today say it has not. I'll go with Paul.
When I read:
Matt 17:12 "But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.
I believe what Jesus said: 'Elijah has come already'. Some today say Elijah still has to come in their eschatological view. I'll go with Jesus.
When I read:
Acts 2:15 "For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is [only] the third hour of the day. 16 "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
I believe Peter was telling them that they were not seeing drunk behavior, they were witnessing what the prophet Joel said would occur 'in the last days'. (Hag's: Whether Joel's text says 'afterward' and Luke/Peter says 'last days' - the passage is referring to things that will transpire before that 'great and powerful Day of the Lord'.) And Peter said (pardon the paraphrase), "They're not drunk. This is what Joel said would happen in the last days." Some today say Peter was wrong, the last days were not in his time, they are to occur 2000+ yrs later. I'll go with Peter.
When Jesus prophesied in Matt 24:34 - "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.”, I believe He meant the same generation that He spoke of shortly before that in Matt 23:36 - "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation (genea).” That generation was the generation of wicked Jewish leaders who He just finished excoriating for their hypocrisy and who rejected the Messiah. All uses of genea in the NT (dozens) refer to the generation in view, not one in the distant future, or the Jewish race.
Further, the common interpretation that ‘this generation’ means the generation that sees the first signs will be the one that sees all ‘these things’ speaks to how rapidly they happen once they start rather than when they happen. The disciples asked when, not how fast would it all go down.
The disciples asked in Matt 24:3 about the end of the age, not the end of the planet. They put 2 and 2 together that if the temple – the center of their worship – was destroyed, that meant the end of that age, the Old Covenant age, and the beginning of the next age – the Messianic age. That is what they asked about, and Jesus answered them. He didn’t skip over that monumental event and tell them about the end of the planet. He started the whole Olivet discourse with a prophesy about the destruction of the temple that would occur before that generation passed away, and within 40 yrs (70AD), the temple and that age was over. And the numerous references in the NT to the soon approaching end of the age is in exact agreement with that prophesy. Imagine that.
It is only the futurist’s need to move all those references out 2000+ yrs that requires positions like all the apostles were mistaken, or saying that last days can continue for thousands of years, or 'this generation' means 'that generation' or the Jewish race, or 'soon' means far, far in the future, or 'now, at the end of the ages' means NOT now at the end of the ages... etc.
Of course, there is much more. If you care to discuss/debate anything, I am willing as long as we avoid meaningless labels, personal insults and stick to Scripture. Get specific, and back up all opinion with Scripture, then we’ll all learn something.
Peace to you all.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/4/2006 2:37:57 PM
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Hagnismos
Posts: 25
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: Hagnismos
Oh, here see, give God a chance and He reminds you of something,
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time." 1 Timothy 2:5,6
Isn't that neat how the holy Spirit put that little verse in the writings of Paul. I would love to see how you twist that one to allow Mary to be a co-Mediator and the Pope to bethe vicar of Christ. Lurker, thou art decieved!
"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4)
So let me get this straight, I can't ask for the Jesus' mother to pray for me because there's but one mediator. But at the same time, it makes sense to ask others to pray for you as mediators....
That does not make sense, especially in light of the previous 4 verses where Pual himself exhorts us to act as mediators for one another.
I see it now Lurker, they way you are interpreting this verse is completely wrong. It does not say what you are claiming it does, it does not say that you an ask departed saints to interceded for you. Why would you need to ask for some departed saint to pray for you when Jesus is of infinite ability and can meet your every need, you can go directly to the Father through Him. Of course prayers can be given by others for you but that is not mediating anything, those come to God through Christ too. Jesus is the sole mediator between God and all men and women living and dead, thinking that there is such a things patron saints of this or that is just another addition to the plain canon that Catholics have placed in their. In fact at least some of the saint reverence was allowed by Catholic priests trying to convert pagan, give the people a Christian pantheon of sorts to replace the pagan one they had when we got here. It also serves to shore up the churches hegemony. The doctrine is false.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/4/2006 2:39:28 PM
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Hagnismos
Posts: 25
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: joefen
quote:
ORIGINAL: Hagnismos
quote:
ORIGINAL: joefen
Ever notice how the length of 'this generation' is growing before our eyes?? 40 yrs has always been the accepted length of time for a generation. That's why all the rapturist were gearing up for 1988 (1948 formation +40 yrs). Well, that came and went, so they moved the start date to 1967, which puts the rapture at 2007. Well, no sign of a rebuilt temple on the horizon, and although every daily headline is interpreted as another fulfillment of something, 2007 will come and go also.
So now, we get a stretching of generation to 'keep hope alive' as someone once said. Now a generation is the full lifespan of an adult from 13-90?
If you want to find out what 'this generation' of Matt 24:34 means, why not look at all the other times 'this generation' (Gr. genea) was used in the Gospels alone. (Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 18:8; 17:25; 21:32.) Specifically, look how Jesus used the word just before using it in the Olivet discourse when He was excoriating the scribes and pharisees in the Temple in Matt 23:
Matt23:32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' [guilt.] 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: [some] of them you will kill and crucify, and [some] of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation [genea]. .
Peace to you all.
It seems clear that you are some type of pretearist. Fine, you beleive what you like. but at least state it up front. It's just courtesy. Trying to draw people to your point of view by questions that lead nowhere near your stand unless you have special interpretations of them is just a waste of people's time. Whatever you believe just say it! I think it is completely unrealistic to see in Scripture a notion that all things were fulfiled before 70 AD. It makes no sense because the world is not perfected, not by a long shot, and the true church does not rule. . . . . As far as I can tell pretearism falls under Paul's admonishen in Colossians to watch for people who get hung up on pet doctrine not essential to salvation.
Does you point of view matter for salvation? So then stand on it or don't, but don't skulk around and sell your ideas to the uninformed as though discovered Eldorado.
Patience is one thing but rebuking error is another. But then we don;t even know what you believe Joefen, you refuse to come out of the shadows and state it plainly.
Wow, take it easy Hag's. For the record, I never concealed my view that much more of prophesy was fulfilled in the 1st century than many today believe. My posts back to you explaining how Peter in Acts 2 said they were in the last days told you that. I'm not 'skulking' and I have no interest whatsoever in 'selling my ideas to the uninformed’. I didn't discover fulfilled eschatology, it's been around long before premillenial dispensationalism was 'discovered' in the 1800s.
Questions are good. They generate study in His Word and refine and correct positions if we are open to that. But I know that approach is not for everyone. Some have it all figured out. I admit I don’t. I ask questions to see if the responses shed light on certain passages and give insight on an interpretation that I have not heard. That’s how we grow. I am interested in what you all have found in your studies. I’m not at all interested in changing anyone’s mind.
It is unanswered questions that lead nowhere. I asked whether those believing WE are in the last days thought that Peter and Paul and John and the writer of Hebrews were wrong since they all taught that they themselves were in the last days and the end of the age was upon them - and I gave a bunch of verses that refer. No response, but I didn't accuse anyone of hiding 'in the shadows'. Many verses indicate that they were at the end of the age, I have not seen any that say the last days/end of the age was anything but ‘near’, ‘at hand’, ‘at the door’, ‘coming quickly’, ‘soon’, or happening before ‘this generation’ passed away. Feel free to provide them.
No one said one's interpretation of eschatology is a matter of salvation. I hope you don't think so. I stand on my view the same as you do on yours. We just look at the same verses and see different things. When I read:
Romans 16:25-27. Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations (ethnos), according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—— to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
Romans 1:8. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Col. 1:5-6. ...the gospel, which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
Col. 1:23. if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
I believe Paul said Matt 24:14 was fulfilled - some today say it has not. I'll go with Paul.
When I read:
Matt 17:12 "But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.
I believe what Jesus said: 'Elijah has come already'. Some today say Elijah still has to come in their eschatological view. I'll go with Jesus.
When I read:
Acts 2:15 "For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is [only] the third hour of the day. 16 "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
I believe Peter was telling them that they were not seeing drunk behavior, they were witnessing what the prophet Joel said would occur 'in the last days'. (Hag's: Whether Joel's text says 'afterward' and Luke/Peter says 'last days' - the passage is referring to things that will transpire before that 'great and powerful Day of the Lord'.) And Peter said (pardon the paraphrase), "They're not drunk. This is what Joel said would happen in the last days." Some today say Peter was wrong, the last days were not in his time, they are to occur 2000+ yrs later. I'll go with Peter.
When Jesus prophesied in Matt 24:34 - "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.”, I believe He meant the same generation that He spoke of shortly before that in Matt 23:36 - "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation (genea).” That generation was the generation of wicked Jewish leaders who He just finished excoriating for their hypocrisy and who rejected the Messiah. All uses of genea in the NT (dozens) refer to the generation in view, not one in the distant future, or the Jewish race.
Further, the common interpretation that ‘this generation’ means the generation that sees the first signs will be the one that sees all ‘these things’ speaks to how rapidly they happen once they start rather than when they happen. The disciples asked when, not how fast would it all go down.
The disciples asked in Matt 24:3 about the end of the age, not the end of the planet. They put 2 and 2 together that if the temple – the center of their worship – was destroyed, that meant the end of that age, the Old Covenant age, and the beginning of the next age – the Messianic age. That is what they asked about, and Jesus answered them. He didn’t skip over that monumental event and tell them about the end of the planet. He started the whole Olivet discourse with a prophesy about the destruction of the temple that would occur before that generation passed away, and within 40 yrs (70AD), the temple and that age was over. And the numerous references in the NT to the soon approaching end of the age is in exact agreement with that prophesy. Imagine that.
It is only the futurist’s need to move all those references out 2000+ yrs that requires positions like all the apostles were mistaken, or saying that last days can continue for thousands of years, or 'this generation' means 'that generation' or the Jewish race, or 'soon' means far, far in the future, or 'now, at the end of the ages' means NOT now at the end of the ages... etc.
Of course, there is much more. If you care to discuss/debate anything, I am willing as long as we avoid meaningless labels, personal insults and stick to Scripture. Get specific, and back up all opinion with Scripture, then we’ll all learn something.
Peace to you all.
Ok, ok that works. I would like to point to this thing you say about Elijah and John. I will post that later tonight maybe that is a place where we can start a more edifying conversation.
Stripping away all histrionics and emotional pleas I would like to ask you this. I still don;t know exactly what you are claiming but it seems to be something of pretearist flavor. suppose it is true and 70 AD was an important watershed, what does that mean for us today? What are the major points that your point of views leaves us with, does it change how a person gets saved, or how they are to conduct themselves as Christians? Just a few things to think about. So far I see you saying some things but not clearly stating why you are saying those things. Once you can settle on that, then we can have a real debate.
Talk to ya later
H
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/4/2006 6:05:02 PM
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joefen
Posts: 109
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline
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Great! I appreciate that H. Didn't mean to come on strong, but it is frustrating to have people discount a point out of hand that is made with Scripture. All these things are debatable, no doubt. I'm glad you are willing to discuss things - that's good.
I do believe there is merit to much of what the preterists say, although I have only studied 1st century fulfillment for about a year. I don't claim to be any xxxxxx-ist, just a follower of Jesus studying His Word and asking Him to help me understand it. The Olivet discourse is an amazing prophesy about the stunning statement by Jesus that the temple would be destroyed. But I don't see any transition from that event in 70AD to a completely separate, very different event - the destruction of the planet - thousands of years later. It is one smooth continuous discourse with no clarifying statements like: "Okay, now that is what happens leading up to not one stone being left upon another. Now I'm going to tell you about the end of the planet." Nothing like that. That fact alone merits at least an investigation into whether the discourse should apply to the subject at hand or one not even mentioned in the original statement and disciples' questions.
As for salvation, fulfilled eschatology is a separate subject IMO. Salvation of one's soul is not a function of His 2nd coming. There is no doubt that 'a' parousia or coming occured in 70AD just as all the apostles taught. And it was the end of the age - the Jewish/physical temple where God dwelled/law/animal sacrifice/Old Covenant/sin-only-covered age. The age that the Messiah brought in is the New Covenant/Holy Spirit dwelling in each believer's heart/grace/His final, perfect sacrifice/sin completely forgiven and made powerless age. That's a funky sentence, but I think you get the transition I am clumsily trying to describe, as I see it.
What's it mean for us today? I am thrilled right now that Jesus Christ is reigning in His Kingdom. A Kingdom where sin has been defeated and has no power over us, thanks to His cleansing blood. A Kingdom that He constantly described as spiritual, not the usual earthly kingdom like everyone was looking for. They wanted the Messiah to come and blow away the Romans and make THEM the powerful people on earth. When they heard that Jesus wasn't going to do that, they rejected Him. The first 1/3 of John's gospel is example after example of the spiritual nature of His Kingdom, yet people today want to make it an earthly one. He is not on hold somewhere waiting for decendants of people who rejected Him to build a building that has no purpose in the New Covenant. Heb 9 and 10 should make that pretty clear. Is there any Scriptural support for His Kingdom being delayed thousands of years? Did He speak of a Kingdom 'at hand' or one far off in the distance, irrelavent to His audience?
The only thing it should change for how we live as Christians today is to stop trying to make every headline fit into some last days, end of the world scenario. Enjoy the peace that He has given us over the things of this world, and be lights to the rest of the world - trying to live the way He taught us, not threatening doomsday on non-believers with every twitch Israel makes.
I can't discount the fact that ALL the apostles' time references to the last days and end of the age were 'soon', 'at hand', 'coming quickly', 'the last hour'. And NONE indicate otherwise - unless you count the futurist's favorite 'one day is like 1000 yrs'. Using that to establish a prophetic clock renders all time statements meaningless. I actually think Rev 1:1 means 'things which must shortly take place' and 1:3 means 'for the time is near' - not the exact opposite of plain language to make an eschatology work.
That's enough for now, what do others say.
Peace to you all.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/5/2006 1:02:15 AM
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Hagnismos
Posts: 25
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline
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Matt 17:12 "But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.
I believe what Jesus said: 'Elijah has come already'. Some today say Elijah still has to come in their eschatological view. I'll go with Jesus.
[/quote]
I wanted to touch on this. And just see if I can make a convincing argument. Jesus is referring ot Malachi 3:17 (it's in Malachi if that is not the specific verse), "I will send you my prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord." That is fulfilled in John's life according to Jesus. In fact when the angel announces John's birth he says he will go before the Lord in the spirit and power of Elijah. That point I think does not imply that a future day of wrath will not happen. Here I have two verses that I think suggest some important issues here, but let me know what you think.
Hebrews 2:5-18
Some highlights
verse 5 "For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking."
verse 7,8 "But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him. But we see Jesus made for a little while lower than the angels,.. crowned with glory and honor."
Hebrews was written sometime between 50 and 95 AD.
Hebrews 9:25-28 "But now once in the end of the world (consummation) he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice if Himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after that the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of out Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the great falling away come first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God."
2 Thes 2:8 "And then the lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to and end by the apearance of His coming."
2 Thessalonians was written between 80 and 100 AD.
I would submit to you that especially the last passage suggests that, the man of sin has nothing to do with 70 AD, and that the coming of Christ which will destroy him is later coming. As the verse from Hebrews said, in the appearing in the manger to the cross he did a way with sin, but in the next appearing he is brining the completeness of the salvation purchased at calvary, as it says in Hebrews 2 we do not yet see all things subject to him, but we see Jesus crowned with glory because he suffered death once for all sin.
Now, I think logically what some of these other statements out there about emphasis on "end times", "last days", "end of the age" as though the Apostles thought the end was imminent is a possibility within the meaning of the text but not a certainty or a proof. In order for a teaching to be consistent every passage that could implicate the issue must be in agreement. 2Thessalonians was written after 70 AD and points to a future event that we can be rather certain has not yet happened. Before the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD no man of sin stood in the temple claiming to be God, and certianly none since. Thus if the passage is understood as a prophecy there will be a new temple and a coming man of sin.
But I'll bet these are issues you have thought about and I await your reply.
Also as aside I just wanted to say that I agree with you that salvation is central and the fruit of the spirit as evidence of salvation is agreed upon by most. the preaching of the gospel is the primary purpose of the church. So if we end up spending inordinant amounts of time studying one issue (not essential to salvation) and then in our every conversation we immediately try to focus on that teachings, are we not at least in danger of being out of balance? I leave that out there as challenge, if maybe your deep knowledge of this teaching has taken time away from study of the word for other more central reasons.
Really in a sense I am admitting to my own short comings, because for at least the first fiv eyears I was saved I studied things that were somewhat useful, but I often went over board in to issues of miracles and angels and demons. But the Lord has called me back to the centrla themes in the Bible which sometimes seem boring to new believers, by this I mean the stations of the cross, the ministry of the church, the fruit of the spirit, I think we all know these things, but in Hebrews 6 Paul suggests that if we actually practiced them the impact would be profound.
So for me now I am setting my sights directly on quality and the fruit of the spirit. The gifts will also be there as needed and useful to God but I need to submit to God's sovereign Hand, seek Him with all my heart and be willing to share about His love. So, you will see me say this in my posts over and over again, quality, quality, quality. The church should always be noticeable by the fact that the believers love one another, that's what I mean by quality and that is what I am seeking.
God's best,
H
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/5/2006 1:38:11 AM
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comeuphither
Posts: 110
Joined: 8/28/2006
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Elijah is plainly one of the witnesses, he was taken up to heaven probably to be prepared for his moment in Rev. 11.(11 Kings 2) personally, I believe Enoch is the other witness and some say moses. no one knows the second witness for sure though, only one which is Elijah in person, not in spirit. take it or leave it.....thats what scripture says. Deb 
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/5/2006 2:20:01 AM
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Hagnismos
Posts: 25
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: comeuphither
Elijah is plainly one of the witnesses, he was taken up to heaven probably to be prepared for his moment in Rev. 11.(11 Kings 2) personally, I believe Enoch is the other witness and some say moses. no one knows the second witness for sure though, only one which is Elijah in person, not in spirit. take it or leave it.....thats what scripture says. Deb
You are inferring that one of the witnesses is Elijah, the Bible does not explicitly state that and you inference does not constitute a proof. Someone probably taught you long ago that because Elijah never died he is one of the witnesses. But look if that is the criterion then Enoch must be the other witness. But that makes no sense realtive to the notion that Moses as the Giver of the Law and Elijah as the one that calls Israel back ot the Law should be the two witnesses. The two teachings are in contradiction. The teaching that it is Elijah and Moses is just another pet doctrine, the Bible does not say for sure. It takes wisdom not to go beyond what is written. It takes trusting God. Now I have heard of pastors who like to use that teaching to quickly deflate young men who think they might be one of the two witnesses. It seems many young males with flagging self esteem have needed to try to lay claim to those ministries, and be not surprised that many prominent ministers of this century have as well. But trying to safeguard against one error by committing another is not safety at all, it is exactly what the enemy desires to frighten us into proclaiming on God's behalf things He did bother to include in the Bible. Every time I see you tell me something is in the Bible when it is is not I will be sure to point it out to you. Trust God, He is sovereign, He was it under control. If we were intended to know who the witnesses will be it would be written down. If we were intended to know the age of the earth or what dinner Noah had just prior to entering the Ark, it would be written down. Here I have a verse about not stretching the Bible.
"Do not add to His words lest He rebuke you and you be found a liar." Proverbs ?
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/5/2006 7:27:07 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1948
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
gospelintruth said:
Keep your eye on Islam. They've been attacking the Church since 1100 AD. Islam came about in 622 AD when Mohommad had his so called "Resightal Visions". He went to Jerusalem and teamed up with surrounding Jews to overthrow the Church; thus, begetting the Crusades.
You need a little research here. Muhammad never tried to overthrow the church. He never teamed up with the Jews to do this either. The crusades came about centuries after Muhammad's death. In fact, Muhammad was at peace with both Jews and Christians until close to the end of his life, when they started really questioning what he was saying. Surahs 5 and 9 are in response to what was being questioned and, thus, are the last Surahs "revealed". Before spouting something off to prove a point, do a little research.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/5/2006 5:33:45 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Protestants Hi Lurker,
I’ll have to agree with you, not everyone who professes to be a Christian is one, at least IMO.
People go to church for many different reasons and sadly knowing Christ is not always the reason. It’s amazing how one can set through the service every Sunday morning of their life and never be touched. And then of course, there are churches who never lead their congregation to the truth to begin with.
Regarding the RCC, there are so many things that one can point to, that make one suspect. I always hesitate to use these as examples because they are someone else’s opinion and not always fact from the RCC itself.
The one frightening thing regarding the pope is that Catholics see him as being Omnipotent (which he claims to be) and he can say or do no wrong. His word is law, so who needs to turn to God or Christ. If he says another religion is OK, then people will believe him. This puts him in position to introduce the antichrist, even the prophecies of St. Malachy say the last pope will be the False Prophet, I sure you have read this.
In Christ!
It seems to me that many people still don't fully understand the position of the Pope in the Catholic Church. All to often I hear people claiming that either the Pope himself claims to be omnipotent, or that EVERYTHING the pope says must be believed by all faithful Catholics. Sadly, these misunderstandings lead many to reject the Catholic Church completely. I know, I used to believe some of these claims.
That said, let me be quite clear. The pope has NEVER claimed to be omnipotent. And any Catholic who claims he is, is quite frankly, a heretic. The pope is not omnipotent, and nor is he always infalliable. We've got some really great threads on the Pope's role, I'd heartily recommend you take the time to read through it, it's quite lengthy but you'll find a lot of the more common misconceptions addressed with both scriptural and historical support as well. It seems to me that you're not really rejecting the Catholic Church, you're fighting against a church that doesn't really exist. I urge you then in the words of St. Paul the Apostle, "test everything, hold fast to what is good."
Don't just take blindly the claims made against the Church as fact. Thanks to the wonders of this modern age, we have access to the Catholic Church's own documents for free online. If someone claims that the Church teaches something that doesn't seem right, check it out yourself! Compare and contrast the various claims with the official documents and with historical documents.
You've got a true devotion to the Lord and I can see you're dedicated to serving Him as best you can. That is something truly wonderful. And I know that you're concerned about my salvation, it's humbling and joyful to know that. Pray and read up on what the Church really teaches. Ifafter doing the research you still feel the Catholic Church is false, at least that way you'll be better prepared to witness to Catholics. But who knows, you might find out that what you've been told about the Catholic Church, and what it really teaches are two different things. :)
Keeping you in my prayers I remain,
your humble brother in Christ.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 9/5/2006 11:14:36 PM
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Hagnismos
Posts: 25
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Protestants Hi Lurker,
I’ll have to agree with you, not everyone who professes to be a Christian is one, at least IMO.
People go to church for many different reasons and sadly knowing Christ is not always the reason. It’s amazing how one can set through the service every Sunday morning of their life and never be touched. And then of course, there are churches who never lead their congregation to the truth to begin with.
Regarding the RCC, there are so many things that one can point to, that make one suspect. I always hesitate to use these as examples because they are someone else’s opinion and not always fact from the RCC itself.
The one frightening thing regarding the pope is that Catholics see him as being Omnipotent (which he claims to be) and he can say or do no wrong. His word is law, so who needs to turn to God or Christ. If he says another religion is OK, then people will believe him. This puts him in position to introduce the antichrist, even the prophecies of St. Malachy say the last pope will be the False Prophet, I sure you have read this.
In Christ!
It seems to me that many people still don't fully understand the position of the Pope in the Catholic Church. All to often I hear people claiming that either the Pope himself claims to be omnipotent, or that EVERYTHING the pope says must be believed by all faithful Catholics. Sadly, these misunderstandings lead many to reject the Catholic Church completely. I know, I used to believe some of these claims.
That said, let me be quite clear. The pope has NEVER claimed to be omnipotent. And any Catholic who claims he is, is quite frankly, a heretic. The pope is not omnipotent, and nor is he always infalliable. We've got some really great threads on the Pope's role, I'd heartily recommend you take the time to read through it, it's quite lengthy but you'll find a lot of the more common misconceptions addressed with both scriptural and historical support as well. It seems to me that you're not really rejecting the Catholic Church, you're fighting against a church that doesn't really exist. I urge you then in the words of St. Paul the Apostle, "test everything, hold fast to what is good."
Don't just take blindly the claims made against the Church as fact. Thanks to the wonders of this modern age, we have access to the Catholic Church's own documents for free online. If someone claims that the Church teaches something that doesn't seem right, check it out yourself! Compare and contrast the various claims with the official documents and with historical documents.
You've got a true devotion to the Lord and I can see you're dedicated to serving Him as best you can. That is something truly wonderful. And I know that you're concerned about my salvation, it's humbling and joyful to know that. Pray and read up on what the Church really teaches. Ifafter doing the research you still feel the Catholic Church is false, at least that way you'll be better prepared to witness to Catholics. But who knows, you might find out that what you've been told about the Catholic Church, and what it really teaches are two different things. :)
Keeping you in my prayers I remain,
your humble brother in Christ.
The key question here is how does a person recieve salvation and forgiveness of sin in the Catholic Church. Can any catholic pray to Jesus and ask forgivenss and be justified, or must they go through the priests and by extension the Pope? Salvation in the Bible involves repentance and confession of sin to God, for as David says, against You, you alone have I sinned and done that which is evil in Your eyes. If God is not the one we go to, whose to say what sin is and isn't. I think it is a sin to harbor pedophiles from prosecution, but JPII did not think so.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 10/23/2006 9:50:00 PM
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Daniel_Lang
Posts: 44
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline
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I declare the one true gospel to be the Christ, Yeshua died for our sins according to all the scriptures, He was buried and He rose again the third day according to all the writings of the prophets.
I will not call the Catholic Church a church. If it needs a name I will call it principality and power of Rome. It is not a church and there is no life or salvation contained with her walls. It is the mixed multitude worshipping gods that are no gods, and calls herself Christian. D not be deceived! Beware of man!
Where is it in prophecy? Rev 17:9, "Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth (the great whore). And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come: and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."
The power of Rome are the seven mountains that give the beast its form (it is an unnatural, brute beast) of seven heads, and it is the seven mountains, the great whore sits on. When understanding is given concerning these things, 5 kings of Rome will be fallen (died), one is, and one is yet to come. When understanding is given the sixth king reigns and then he falls and the seventh reigns for "a short space". There could never be understanding until the sixth king came-understanding that only comes from God.
A SHORT SPACE! The day of Christ is at hand! The day of Christ comes in a short space. The seventh king now reigns for a short space. And no man can say in spirit and truth, that the day of Christ comes in a short space, unless the falling away has occurred first and the man of sin, the son of perdition has been revealed. The falling away has occurred and the man of sin has been revealed.
As far as Rome, may it be judged by the gospel. It is barren of preaching the gospel. It exalts men instead of Christ, Yeshua. It glories in the wisdom of the world, rather than the wisdom that only comes from God. It is as a worldly power and if it cannot be discerned as such, how far have we fallen from the grace of God.
Daniel
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 10/25/2006 9:44:50 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
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The topic of this thread is the Catholic Church in Prophecy.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 10/25/2006 10:29:22 AM
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gospelintruth
Posts: 158
Joined: 8/29/2006
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I do not believe the Catholic Church is regarded in Revelation. I used to think that because we read things in Revelation 17 about the scarlot colored beasts, with golden bowls, and all the Old Testament requirements of the temple. Careful study and research led to the truth of the Harlot, that this was none other than Jerusalem. Christ wasn't killed in Rome....."Where also our Lord was crucified".....Christ was killed in Jerusalem.
Revelation also says, "The Beast will hate the woman (Prostitue) and burn her with fire. Will Rome burn the Catholic Church with fire? This cannot be, just as Christ was not killed in Rome. But historically speaking, Jerusalem chose allegiance to Caesar to obtain permission to crucify Christ. They did the same thing in the book of acts to obtain permission to hunt down and kill the Apostles and their disciples. Therefore, the Harlot who sits on many waters is Jerusalem, and although they were not the sole rulers of all the nations, in God's eyes they were, for Israel was supposed to maintain her reputation as God's personal dwelling place. Thus, from a heavenly stand point, they were the rulers of the nations. But each time the light became dim (religion perverted and they committed unlawful acts) God sent disaster upon them to "change out the bulb".
Conclusion: Christ sent His massive national armies of Rome (The Beast) to change out the light bulb (destroy Jerusalem) and replace Israel with a better light bulb (New Jerusalem) that shall never fade. Chrstianity is the true light of the world.
And just as Jerusalem didn't physically rule over the earth, but they did through God. Jerusalem was the center of Heavenly activity; when they sinned, God sent calamity. Well, that age is gone now and there's another Kingdom far superior and more powerful than that city. It's called the City of God, the one He loves, being the Israel of God.....The Church which is more powerful than any kingdom on earth.
Why is sin still around? Can a cake be baked without a fire in the oven? Will steal be easily shaped unless it was first put to the fire? In modern terms, can the gasoline be ignited unless there is a spark? Can a Christian's true light shine unless troubles train him and dicipline him? Does godliness come simply by believing something? or by believing and practicing? And as we know, practice makes perfect.
This is the nature of the Kingdom. We abide in this world to be prepared for what's ahead in each and everyone of us. We represent the cake which Christ is preparing. But without the heat, we cannot bake. If the heat is too hot, we will burn and be useless. Therefore, God will not let you be tempted beyond your limits. And with the temptation also provide a way of escape. But if the fire is too small, we do not cook fast enough and could turn sour. And a cake that becomes sour is not worthy of eating. Therefore, it is throne out.
We need heat for training and Christ for instruction. But this all depends on you.
Conclusion: The Roman Catholic Church is suffering a set-back from error. But I do not believe they represent the beast or the AC. The seven heads were the seven Emperors.
_____________________________
For to live is Christ, but to die is gain.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 10/28/2006 12:26:59 AM
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Mr.
Posts: 1596
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gospelintruth
I do not believe the Catholic Church is regarded in Revelation. I used to think that because we read things in Revelation 17 about the scarlot colored beasts, with golden bowls, and all the Old Testament requirements of the temple. Careful study and research led to the truth of the Harlot, that this was none other than Jerusalem. Christ wasn't killed in Rome....."Where also our Lord was crucified".....Christ was killed in Jerusalem.
Revelation also says, "The Beast will hate the woman (Prostitue) and burn her with fire. Will Rome burn the Catholic Church with fire? This cannot be, just as Christ was not killed in Rome. But historically speaking, Jerusalem chose allegiance to Caesar to obtain permission to crucify Christ. They did the same thing in the book of acts to obtain permission to hunt down and kill the Apostles and their disciples. Therefore, the Harlot who sits on many waters is Jerusalem, and although they were not the sole rulers of all the nations, in God's eyes they were, for Israel was supposed to maintain her reputation as God's personal dwelling place. Thus, from a heavenly stand point, they were the rulers of the nations. But each time the light became dim (religion perverted and they committed unlawful acts) God sent disaster upon them to "change out the bulb".
Conclusion: Christ sent His massive national armies of Rome (The Beast) to change out the light bulb (destroy Jerusalem) and replace Israel with a better light bulb (New Jerusalem) that shall never fade. Chrstianity is the true light of the world.
And just as Jerusalem didn't physically rule over the earth, but they did through God. Jerusalem was the center of Heavenly activity; when they sinned, God sent calamity. Well, that age is gone now and there's another Kingdom far superior and more powerful than that city. It's called the City of God, the one He loves, being the Israel of God.....The Church which is more powerful than any kingdom on earth.
Excellent!
quote:
Why is sin still around? Can a cake be baked without a fire in the oven? Will steal be easily shaped unless it was first put to the fire? In modern terms, can the gasoline be ignited unless there is a spark? Can a Christian's true light shine unless troubles train him and dicipline him? Does godliness come simply by believing something? or by believing and practicing? And as we know, practice makes perfect.
This is the nature of the Kingdom. We abide in this world to be prepared for what's ahead in each and everyone of us. We represent the cake which Christ is preparing. But without the heat, we cannot bake. If the heat is too hot, we will burn and be useles | | |
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