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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/16/2007 6:17:03 PM
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ukfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
Hmmmm...
Not entirely correct, gato... As a 'sinless' Hebrew, she would be required to cast a stone as was commanded by Jewish law. To not have done so would have been it's own sin...
Why are you assuming Mary was even there? It's not mentioned in the Bible? Also, as a sinless Hebrew, why didn't Jesus start stoning the woman? He would have been breaking the Jewish Law and sinning according to your interpretation.
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"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/17/2007 10:27:21 PM
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DeborahL
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Thus,
no one is without sin.
Hence the glorious gospel of God.
HIS babe he sent to grow and sacrifice here..and that is grace sufficient!!!
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/21/2007 8:30:21 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
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Peter (the first pope) should have made a
comment about Mary for future generations.
He could have eliminated all this speculation
about the possibility of Mary's sinlessness.
Something of this magnitude (no sin) would be
a topic of continual discussion and debate even
in the early church when it allegedly existed, but
---it is NEVER, EVER mentioned by anyone
---John the adopted son is silent also
One would think it appropriate to celebrate the
imparting of Mary as your mother. Based on her
position and power, John should realize a benefit.
Again, nothing noteworthy to report or tell us !
Here's what Peter (the pope) does say however-
1 Peter 1:24 (King James Version)
24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
Wouldn't he have inserted a Marian disclaimer ?
Shouldn't all the inspired writers of Almighty God,
inspired by The Holy Spirit all have done such ?
Mary is never separted due to her "sinlessness".
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/9/2008 6:52:59 PM
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EssenceofExcellence
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I see from the dates that this thread has been silent for a long while but I have to know whether Catholics actually believe Mary was sinless or not?????????
The answer is an obvious no, for everyone human being ever born except Jesus was born with original sin!!! So of course she had sin.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/9/2008 11:19:38 PM
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Papa-san
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Not only born with original sin, but all except for Jesus Himself have sinned at least once themselves, or scripture contradicts itself and is thus invalidated...
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"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/10/2008 10:50:44 AM
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Catholicandloveit
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Catholics believe that Mary was preserved by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings. Catholics call this the Immaculate Conception because her conception which was brought about in the normal way, was without original sin or its stain.
Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.
Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? We know of a very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.
Pax,
Mary
Taken from http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
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Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/12/2008 11:51:39 AM
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Papa-san
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? We know of a very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.
Taken from http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
Sorry... I cut what is fiction according to Gods word, but will address the last part: The obvious understanding of the Big Picture of all of scripture is the fact that Jesus was (the only One) unstained by sin. One of His greatest Apostles figured we would already know this by the time we were receiving teaching in this regard. However, nowhere does he (or anyone else) say that this exception would be made for Mary as well... (Did I miss something? Did Adam come to us through Eve? Where do you get this picture of unbalanced 'equivalence' between Eve and Mary?) Scripture speaks of the 'new Adam' but it does NOT speak of a new Eve... Because some people think it should all fit together this way makes it factual? God never told us we should (or could) do that, so we shouldn't be teaching it as if it were the truth...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/13/2008 1:51:55 PM
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EssenceofExcellence
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Mary couldn't have been saved by Christ's grace before Christ had committed the act that would allow her to be saved, dying on the cross.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/13/2008 2:54:42 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EssenceofExcellence
Mary couldn't have been saved by Christ's grace before Christ had committed the act that would allow her to be saved, dying on the cross.
Are you saying that God is limited by time and space?
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/13/2008 2:55:29 PM
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lgpreacherman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EssenceofExcellence
Mary couldn't have been saved by Christ's grace before Christ had committed the act that would allow her to be saved, dying on the cross.
Why not? Moses was saved by grace, as was David and Abraham, Issac and Jacob, Elijah and Elisha, basically all of the OT saints. As I recall Christ was slain from the foundation of the world not only in 34 A.D.
_____________________________
There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church.
Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
www.iccec.com
www.cechome.com
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/13/2008 5:18:56 PM
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EssenceofExcellence
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: EssenceofExcellence
Mary couldn't have been saved by Christ's grace before Christ had committed the act that would allow her to be saved, dying on the cross.
Are you saying that God is limited by time and space?
No, but there IS a reason why Christ came, it was to Save and bring salvation unto the world, if he was already handing out get out of jail free cards he wouldn't have needed to die in the first place. The entire idea is in contrast to the entire faith of Christianity which is that Christ died to take away our sin so we wouldn't die and suffer because of it! Do you not understand that none of us are worthy and we are ALL sinners? Do you not understand that the only way for our sin to be taken away was by the sacrafice of our Lord Jesus Christ? Do you not understand that in order for sin to be taken away and/or forgiven the price for our sin must be paid? For God is a Just God, Justice is always done. He said if you eat of the fruit you WILL die. They ate, there for we are ALL stained, and only by paying the price that Christ paid could the sin be forgiven. And this unquestionably includes Mary.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/13/2008 5:23:22 PM
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EssenceofExcellence
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman
quote:
ORIGINAL: EssenceofExcellence
Mary couldn't have been saved by Christ's grace before Christ had committed the act that would allow her to be saved, dying on the cross.
Why not? Moses was saved by grace, as was David and Abraham, Issac and Jacob, Elijah and Elisha, basically all of the OT saints. As I recall Christ was slain from the foundation of the world not only in 34 A.D.
Yes saved by grace, saved because of the promises that have yet to come but they believed would come. Salvation truley given after Christ died and went down into Sheol.
And that grace they were given didn't make them born without sin and live sinless as Mary was claimed to by the CC.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/13/2008 6:03:40 PM
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lgpreacherman
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I was not arguing foe her sinlessness just her salvation.
_____________________________
There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church.
Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
www.iccec.com
www.cechome.com
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/13/2008 7:25:58 PM
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Papa-san
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman
quote:
ORIGINAL: EssenceofExcellence
Mary couldn't have been saved by Christ's grace before Christ had committed the act that would allow her to be saved, dying on the cross.
Why not? Moses was saved by grace, as was David and Abraham, Issac and Jacob, Elijah and Elisha, basically all of the OT saints. As I recall Christ was slain from the foundation of the world not only in 34 A.D.
You are correct about these exceptions and that Christ would be slain and He knew this from the beginning. These others were noteworthy, so they were written about. If this would have been the case with Mary, it would have been included in Gods word... point blank. The ENTIRE range of thought in regards to Mary is nothing more than the creation of imagination and desire. Your church had to figure out how to get past the stance that scripture was the final authority to be able to invent mariolotry. However, they managed it, and we now have what we have. Plus, that 'church' then got the added bonus of being able to foist ANYTHING as truth because now the church became the ultimate authority.
I'm not saying for sure that it was Mary that prompted the change, but something did it, and many, many unscriptural inventions followed, and we then got Orthodoxy as a result... Tis a pity that they didn't just follow the example set forth in scripture, cause then there would be no 'denominations'.
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 3/13/2008 7:32:56 PM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/14/2008 11:02:51 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
quote:
ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman
quote:
ORIGINAL: EssenceofExcellence
Mary couldn't have been saved by Christ's grace before Christ had committed the act that would allow her to be saved, dying on the cross.
Why not? Moses was saved by grace, as was David and Abraham, Issac and Jacob, Elijah and Elisha, basically all of the OT saints. As I recall Christ was slain from the foundation of the world not only in 34 A.D.
You are correct about these exceptions and that Christ would be slain and He knew this from the beginning. These others were noteworthy, so they were written about. If this would have been the case with Mary, it would have been included in Gods word... point blank. The ENTIRE range of thought in regards to Mary is nothing more than the creation of imagination and desire. Your church had to figure out how to get past the stance that scripture was the final authority to be able to invent mariolotry. However, they managed it, and we now have what we have. Plus, that 'church' then got the added bonus of being able to foist ANYTHING as truth because now the church became the ultimate authority.
I'm not saying for sure that it was Mary that prompted the change, but something did it, and many, many unscriptural inventions followed, and we then got Orthodoxy as a result... Tis a pity that they didn't just follow the example set forth in scripture, cause then there would be no 'denominations'.
This likely belongs in another thread, but I've yet to find anywhere in the scriptures where the scriptures claim to be the final authority. I do however see where the scriptures point to the Church as the pillar and foundation of Truth.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/14/2008 11:21:53 AM
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Papa-san
Posts: 995
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
This likely belongs in another thread, but I've yet to find anywhere in the scriptures where the scriptures claim to be the final authority.
Then you haven't looked very hard...
We are told to study scripture to be able to know the truth, and to compare what 'religious teachers' teach against the standard of scripture. The things that don't mesh up are heresy. What doesn't mesh up with scripture? Orthodoxy....
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 3/14/2008 11:28:34 AM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/14/2008 11:24:49 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
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From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
This likely belongs in another thread, but I've yet to find anywhere in the scriptures where the scriptures claim to be the final authority.
Then you haven't looked very hard...
I've been looking quite hard at the Scriptures for quite some time. And it's quite clear that the scriptures claim to have some authority, but not ALL authority. There is considerable evidence that the Church has more authority as even the scriptures refer to it as the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/14/2008 11:25:05 AM
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mcleod
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Lurker,
quote:
This likely belongs in another thread, but I've yet to find anywhere in the scriptures where the scriptures claim to be the final authority. I do however see where the scriptures point to the Church as the pillar and foundation of Truth.
Where is in scripture that the church is TRUTH as you put it? They the scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit. So it's guide in which to measure things in what people speak. Or what rules they make, in which to abide by.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/14/2008 11:28:38 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
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From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Lurker,
quote:
This likely belongs in another thread, but I've yet to find anywhere in the scriptures where the scriptures claim to be the final authority. I do however see where the scriptures point to the Church as the pillar and foundation of Truth.
Where is in scripture that the church is TRUTH as you put it? They the scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit. So it's guide in which to measure things in what people speak. Or what rules they make, in which to abide by.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Tim.%203:15;&version=31;
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/14/2008 11:37:24 AM
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Papa-san
Posts: 995
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Yup... God is the pillar and ground of the truth! I agree with the verse you supplied!
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/14/2008 5:12:08 PM
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Lurker
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From: Silver Spring, MD
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if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
It says "the church of the living God" is the pillar and foundation.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/15/2008 11:47:02 AM
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Papa-san
Posts: 995
Joined: 4/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
It says "the church of the living God" is the pillar and foundation.
In the Greek language, there is no consideration for the order in which the words are presented. This makes translation require that the context is understood. Within the framework of all of scripture, this is the only place where the church is supposedly the 'pillar'. All throughout scripture, it is understood that God is the pillar and Christ Himself is the foundation. A simple shuffling of commas changes the whole message of the verse. This is why it's a good idea to learn the ancient languages ourselves, so that we can know what the other possible meanings of a thing are. Once one has done that, one sees in the context of scripture, it is far less likely that the church is being spoken of here, and overwhelmingly more likely that the pillar and ground is God/Jesus Christ... NOT the church...
However, this throws a monkey-wrench into the Orthodox view, so it has to be denied at all costs... What if, as God tells us, scripture is the final authority rather than man and his 'Traditions'? Heaven forbid, but then the Orthodox bubble would burst, and they would be forced to face the truth of the ages-old deception, and would have to turn from all the ritual and Mary 'pseudo-worship' and towards Christ and Christ alone... Naw... we just can't have that!
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/16/2008 5:06:48 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
Catholics believe that Mary was preserved by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings. Catholics call this the Immaculate Conception because her conception which was brought about in the normal way, was without original sin or its stain. This is not an apostolic doctrine. It is not found in Scripture nor is it possible to reasonably deduce it from Scripture; therefore, why would anyone believe it?
quote:
Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? We know of a very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made. Actually, really one may not argue it since its not possible to make such an inference. If you look at the context of Romans you will see it refers to all mankind - not God. Now unless it is being proposed that Mary is also God there can be no "exception".
I suppose since only a "sinless one" can redeem that is why Mary is now a co-redeemer which, of course, only serves to take away glory from Our Lord. But, God will not share His glory with anyone “my glory I will not give another.” It is said only of Christ "You alone are Holy.”
In addition, again there isn't the slightest hint in Scripture for calling Mary the "new Eve". If such a title was actually legitimate the only one to fit the biblical description would be Sarah. "For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son" -Romans 9:9
And speaking allegorically of Sarah in Galatians 4, she is called: "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 3/16/2008 5:10:04 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
This likely belongs in another thread, but I've yet to find anywhere in the scriptures where the scriptures claim to be the final authority.
Then you haven't looked very hard...
I've been looking quite hard at the Scriptures for quite some time. And it's quite clear that the scriptures claim to have some authority, but not ALL authority. There is considerable evidence that the Church has more authority as even the scriptures refer to it as the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.
You do realize that is an extreme case of circular reasoning?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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