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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 3/25/2008 11:55:01 AM
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Tirno
Posts: 42
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From: where rockinghorse people eat marshmallow pies
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"You Orthodox! You Catholics! You crucify Christ over and over again! And you have changed everything around in the Bible so you can have your ceremonies and mislead people and keep your power! And you have no understanding of the Scriptures!"
Umm...No we don't. No we didn't. And yes we do.
We do not presume to tell you what your church teaches. Why do you act as if you are more informed of our faith that we are?
The great early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly (himself a Protestant) wrote: “Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood” (Early Christian Doctrines, 440). Beginning with Ignatius of Antioch he cites a host of Eastern and Western Fathers who took Jesus quite literally, “This is my Body.”
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“While you are proclaiming peace with your lips, be careful to have it even more fully in your heart.”
-St. Francis of Assisi
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 3/26/2008 7:42:22 PM
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lgpreacherman
Posts: 89
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Keleman,
I was staying away from posting during Holy Week. To anwer your question I am part of the Charismatic Episcopal Church. the CEC is an Evangelical, Charismatic, Liturgical/sacramental church. THe CEC is not Orthodox but we are orthodox, We are not Catholic but we are catholic, and we take much from our Anglican brothers and sisters. The CEC looks to the teachings of the Unified church upto 1054.
As for the Samaritans vs. Jews argument my point was that while the Jews held the truth and yet they believed in a continuous revelation and oral traditions not just that which was written down from Moses.
There is a difference between claiming that the Church Fathers are inspired and saying that the Bible is silent or unclear on an issue so we are going to look to see how scripture was understood by those who wrote it and their decendents.
The CHurch may have killed Luther and they may not have but the point is Luther did not leave the church, he wanted to reform it from the inside out like Erasmus or others.
As for the Man made laws of the Jews Christ commended their intent he thought it was get that the teachers of the law were so dilligent in tithing that they tithed even their spices. What Christ did not like was when they did this outward thngs and yet were far from him in thier hearts.
_____________________________
There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church.
Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
www.iccec.com
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 3/28/2008 5:17:33 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman
I was staying away from posting during Holy Week. To anwer your question I am part of the Charismatic Episcopal Church. the CEC is an Evangelical, Charismatic, Liturgical/sacramental church. THe CEC is not Orthodox but we are orthodox, We are not Catholic but we are catholic, and we take much from our Anglican brothers and sisters. The CEC looks to the teachings of the Unified church upto 1054. While I can't say I'm familiar with this church, at least I have a better understanding. Thank you for the information.
quote:
As for the Samaritans vs. Jews argument my point was that while the Jews held the truth and yet they believed in a continuous revelation and oral traditions not just that which was written down from Moses. Yes, and it is this very thing which got them into so much trouble with Christ since their continuous revelation and oral traditions were not true to the actual inspired words of God. Christ considered this church hierarchy reprehensible.
As an aside, it's so unfortunate to see Scripture described in any sense as being something that was "just" written down. This mindset seems rampant in the orthodox community. It appears to be somewhat dismissive of the Bible. We see words to that effect all too frequently. Especially unfortunate in light of the fact that it is only of Scripture God declares to be God-breathed - the very words of God Himself. We can be assured of no reliable spiritual truth other than the words in that Book.
Sorry this criticism fell on you; but an attitude of dismissiveness, almost reproach, of the Bible is so prevalent by some orthodox I wanted to comment on it.
quote:
There is a difference between claiming that the Church Fathers are inspired and saying that the Bible is silent or unclear on an issue so we are going to look to see how scripture was understood by those who wrote it and their decendents. It is God who “wrote” it and He used penman to write down His inspired words. There is nothing of any importance concerning our spiritual lives that the Bible is silent about. The Bible says of itself that it is sufficient to thoroughly equip us. The problem is people don’t really believe Scripture and continue to circumvent it as if they had a right to do so – they don’t.
quote:
The CHurch may have killed Luther and they may not have but the point is Luther did not leave the church, he wanted to reform it from the inside out like Erasmus or others. Exactly, he brought certain truths and they kicked him out and sought to kill him. In a like manner, the Jewish leaders refused the truth brought by Jesus and the Apostles. They killed Jesus and eventually kicked out any who brought truth. My point is just as the leaders in Jesus’ church were blind so were the leaders of the church in the day of the Reformers. And both “churches” reacted in much the same way.
quote:
As for the Man made laws of the Jews Christ commended their intent he thought it was get that the teachers of the law were so dilligent in tithing that they tithed even their spices. What Christ did not like was when they did this outward thngs and yet were far from him in thier hearts. I agree, Jesus said they were hypocrites; but, it was a lot more terrible than that. Jesus told them they: “…..make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.” Not good when your Messiah says you and those you convert are children of hell. Jesus made it clear to them that they were wrong and that their whole approach to the Word of God was distorted and twisted. It is very unwise to place one's eternal destiny in the hands a church hierarchy.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 3/29/2008 9:10:42 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
"I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."...and then
"...yet a little while I am with you." or
"and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" or again
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name," and yet again
"It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."
It seems clear Christ is telling us He is present by means of the presence of the Holy Spirit.
WOW K-man.......that rocks the house !
Your post begs this question.......what does RC communion accomplish ?
Jesus is already abiding and remaining in us by The Holy Ghost.
God's Word dwells in us richly. God's Presence gives us real joy !
Your post is yet another reason why we "remember" Sweet Jesus !
manna
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 3/30/2008 2:21:22 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
"I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."...and then
"...yet a little while I am with you." or
"and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" or again
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name," and yet again
"It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."
It seems clear Christ is telling us He is present by means of the presence of the Holy Spirit.
WOW K-man.......that rocks the house !
Your post begs this question.......what does RC communion accomplish ?
Jesus is already abiding and remaining in us by The Holy Ghost.
God's Word dwells in us richly. God's Presence gives us real joy !
Your post is yet another reason why we "remember" Sweet Jesus !
manna
Hi Manna,
In addition to the verses above which indicate "how" Christ is with us, I'm reminded of Acts 1:11 where we are actually told how Christ Himself "will" physically come to us. I'm not sure how Scripture could be more clear that Christ is with us today by the Holy Spirit and will one day return physically.
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 3/31/2008 6:56:45 AM
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facedown
Posts: 907
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From: the urban desert
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in thinking of sacramental theology, our participation in and with god, and thoughts regarding some previous posts, i share the following:
john 6:36 - he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and i in him
john 15:4 - abide in me, and i in you. as a branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in me.
romans 12:5 - so in christ we who are many form one body, and each memeber belongs to all the others
john 17:21 - that they may all be one; even as you, father, are in me, and i in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you sent me
colossians 1:27 - to them god has chosen to make known among the gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is christ in you, the hope of glory.
romans 6:8 now, if we died with christ, we bellieve that we also live with him
galatians 2:20 - i have been crucified with christ and i no longer live, but christ lives in me.
colossians 3:3 - for you died, and your life is now hidden with christ in god.
2 peter 1:4 - through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them, you may participate in the divine nature
acts 17:28- - for in him we live, and move, and have our being. as some of your poets have said "we are his offspring".
ephesians 3:19 - and to know this love that surpasses knowledge - that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of god.
romans 8: 14-15 - because those who are led by the spirit of god are sons of god. for you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the spirit of sonship, and by him we cry "abba father".
galatians 3:26 0 you are all sons of god through faith in christ jesus
john 10:35-37 - if he called them 'gods', to whom the word of god came (and the scripture cannot be broken), what about the one whom the father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because i said "i am god's son"? do not believe me unless i do what my father does.
romans 8:29 - for those god foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his son, that he might be the firstborn among may brothers.
1 corinthians 3:16 - do you not know that you are a temple of god and that the spirit of god dwells in you?
philippians 1:12 - for me, to live is christ
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-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 3/31/2008 1:02:06 PM
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Papa-san
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And with all those references to look at, you still don't realize that the 'sharing' is spirit rather than actual flesh and blood?
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"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 3/31/2008 7:45:35 PM
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facedown
Posts: 907
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what i realize papasan, is that this central message is about literally feasting on christ, abiding in christ, being abidid by, participation, etc with/in Christ.
some seem to envision this not so literally. like it's a transaction maybe, where the person offers money (repentance, etc) and receives goods or services from Jesus, with the Spirit being the Vendor. Or maybe in an ellectrical analogy, where the battery is Jesus and he is connected to us via cables transmiting its signal via electricity (Spirit). Neither of these; however, resonates with these many (and the many others unposted) passages.
can such analogies be found in scripture? certainly. the point isn't that such passages are not to be found. the issue seems to be rather, do we take them all in together, or do we take a select few and then interpret the others to mean something other than what they mean.
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-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/2/2008 3:12:35 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
can such analogies be found in scripture? certainly. the point isn't that such passages are not to be found. the issue seems to be rather, do we take them all in together, or do we take a select few and then interpret the others to mean something other than what they mean. It would seem it is you who take figurative language as literal not recognizing it for what it is. It is would also seem you take one "select" verse attempting to make all others align with what you think it means.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/2/2008 2:23:37 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
And with all those references to look at, you still don't realize that the 'sharing' is spirit rather than actual flesh and blood?
If it's SPIRIT, it could be anyone...
If it's flesh/blood, then it's ONLY a RC...
Where's the evidence ? I don't mean physical.
How is the recipient changed by eating flesh ?
Is it more of a "placebo" than a PRESENCE ?
RC communion is a warm fuzzy...and that's OK !
It is a sensual response to a spiritual revelation.
No harm if the RC feels closer to Jesus, is there ?
How do RC behave after mass ?
In the parking lot, on the way home, at home
in the time immediately following communion ?
Are they EXTRA happy, loving, nice, kind, etc ?
But do the effects wear off and they digress ?
Any sins committed on the way home , in the car,
in someone's speech or in their mind ? YES !
Communion is no magic bullet, or lucky rabbit foot.
Many ex- and non- RC live godly without Communion.
We suffer no loss, and the RC realizes no gain.
Myself and others received communion, and believed
it to be The Body. Just because I believed it to be true
doesn't mean that it was true. I was around so many
people who lived ungodly, then went to confession
on Saturday, received Communion on Sunday, and
though they were the sweet aroma of Christ Jesus.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/3/2008 6:14:10 AM
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facedown
Posts: 907
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kelman
one select verse?
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-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/4/2008 11:40:54 AM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
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Pardon the interruption folks, but this response to DOGHOUSE belonged here and not in the "Salvation and Catholicism" thread.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
I do not take communion to perpetuate His death -- *hint* He is alive. Attendence at RCIA would clear this erroneous understanding of the Eucharist right up for you...
Really. Care to "enlighten" me?
"The Mass, the Lord's Supper, is ... a sacrifice in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated. ... In this sacrament Christ is present in a unique way, whole and entire, God and man, substantially and permanently. This presence of Christ under the species `is called real, not in an exclusive sense, as if the other kinds of presence were not real, but par excellence'" (Vatican Council II--The Conciliar and Post conciliar Documents, 1975, pp. 108,114).
The Catholic Catechism, 1975, says: "The sacrifice on the altar is no mere commemoration of Calvary, but a true and proper act of sacrifice, whereby Christ the high priest, by an unbloody immolation offers himself a most acceptable victim to the eternal father, as he did on the cross."
quote:
quote:
I offer myself to Him as a living sacrifice every morning by dying to my fleshly nature and allowing His Spirit to control my life. So do I. And one of the things asked of us is to partcipate in the Sacraments, including the Eucharistic meal, as an outward sign of the inward grace conveyed by this participation.
An "outward sign of inward grace" ... really.
"All the faithful ought to show to this most holy sacrament the worship which is due to the true God, as has always been the custom of the Catholic Church. Nor is it to be adored any the less because it was instituted by Christ to be eaten. For even in the reserved sacrament he is to be adored because he is substantially present there through that conversion of bread and wine which, as the Council of Trent tells us, is most aptly named transubstantiation" (Vatican Council II, pp. 109-110).
Please provide the scripture to show that we must worship a wafer. Please also provide the scripture to show that worshipping a wafer is an "outward sign of inward grace".
quote:
Perhaps you and I have a different definition of "grace" and "spirit".
You mean perhaps the RCC and I have a different definition, as you argue that you don't believe anything that wasn't taught to you by the RCC. By your own standards, who gave you the authority to define "grace" and "spirit"?
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
<><
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/4/2008 11:56:00 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
Pardon the interruption folks, but this response to DOGHOUSE belonged here and not in the "Salvation and Catholicism" thread.
quote:
quote:
I offer myself to Him as a living sacrifice every morning by dying to my fleshly nature and allowing His Spirit to control my life. So do I. And one of the things asked of us is to partcipate in the Sacraments, including the Eucharistic meal, as an outward sign of the inward grace conveyed by this participation.
An "outward sign of inward grace" ... really.
"All the faithful ought to show to this most holy sacrament the worship which is due to the true God, as has always been the custom of the Catholic Church. Nor is it to be adored any the less because it was instituted by Christ to be eaten. For even in the reserved sacrament he is to be adored because he is substantially present there through that conversion of bread and wine which, as the Council of Trent tells us, is most aptly named transubstantiation" (Vatican Council II, pp. 109-110).
Please provide the scripture to show that we must worship a wafer. Please also provide the scripture to show that worshipping a wafer is an "outward sign of inward grace".
The RCC believes the wafer has power...
So, too, the Church officially teaches that “Every effect which bodily food and bodily drink produce in our corporeal life, by preserving this life, increasing this life, healing this life, and satisfying this life – is also produced by this Sacrament in the spiritual life” (Council of Florence, November 22, 1439). Thus:
1. Holy Communion preserves the supernatural life of the soul by giving the communicant supernatural strength to resist temptation, and by weakening the power of concupiscence. It reinforces the ability of our free will to withstand the assaults of the devil. In a formal definition, the Church calls Holy Communion “an antidote by which we are preserved from grievous sins” (Council of Trent, October 11, 1551).
2. Holy Communion increases the life of grace already present by vitalizing our supernatural life and strengthening the virtues and gifts of the Holy Spirit we possess. To be emphasized, however, is that the main effect of Communion is not to remit sin. In fact, a person in conscious mortal sin commits a sacrilege by going to Communion.
3. Holy Communion cures the spiritual diseases of the soul by cleansing it of venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sin. No less than serving as an antidote to protect the soul from mortal sins, Communion is “an antidote by which we are freed from our daily venial sins” (Council of Trent, October 11, 1551). The remission of venial sins and of the temporal sufferings due to sin takes place immediately by reason of the acts of perfect love of God, which are awakened by the reception of the Eucharist. The extent of this remission depends on the intensity of our charity when receiving Communion
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/4/2008 12:11:50 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
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WBN,
What you call a "wafer" Catholics see as the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ, and yes Catholics Worship Christ - I figure you know the scripture that supports worshiping Christ so I wont post it here. It is the Sacrament - that is an outward sign of an inward grace not a wafer, its so much more than a wafer for Catholics.
PAX,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/4/2008 1:39:47 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
WBN,
What you call a "wafer" Catholics see as the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ, and yes Catholics Worship Christ - I figure you know the scripture that supports worshiping Christ so I wont post it here. It is the Sacrament - that is an outward sign of an inward grace not a wafer, its so much more than a wafer for Catholics.
PAX,
Mary
If Catholics believe this, it is respected as choice.
Some choose not to adhere to this belief.
If The RCC could better articulate and expound
on transubstantiation, perhaps more folk would
concur with what The RCC teaches internally.
If a RC feels closer to Jesus, then that's admirable.
But, there is no detriment to those who disagree.
Especially, since no concrete effects are realized
by the recipients. Shouldn't there be evidence ?
IOW, there is nothing to draw non-RC to the
RC belief. How will this change me ? How will
my intimacy with my Lord be improved ?
I am already indwelt with his Presence !
Then we have the perpetual sacrifice, the
RE-presenting of Jesus, the bloodless offering,
and Jesus Himself re-sacrificing His Holy Body ???
Never really explained, simply a matter of faith.
PART TWO: THE CELEBRATION OF THE CHRISTIAN MYSTERY
SECTION TWO THE SEVEN SACRAMENTS OF THE CHURCH
CHAPTER ONE THE SACRAMENTS OF CHRISTIAN INITIATION
Article 3 THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST
IN BRIEF
1410 It is Christ himself, the eternal high priest of the New Covenant who, acting through the ministry of the priests, offers the Eucharistic sacrifice. and it is the same Christ, really present under the species of bread and wine, who is the offering of the Eucharistic sacrifice
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/4/2008 2:17:28 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 376
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quote:
I am already indwelt with his Presence !
Prove it! Do any miracles lately? You must be a god becuase you can see peoples souls and automatically judge them as not improved after Communion. Or maybe you would like to see them rolling all over the floor like a good ole tent revivial.
But alas, no, even then would you be swayed. The Lord has blessed us with numerous Eucharistic miracles, but that doesn't matter to you. You have declared yourself saved for all eternity oh most omnipotent one....
Otis
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/4/2008 2:26:18 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
By your own standards, who gave you the authority to define "grace" and "spirit"? I have no authority to define these terms but am merely passing on the definition instructed to me the institution that I believe was authorized by Christ for just such a mission.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/4/2008 2:36:18 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2451
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From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
I am already indwelt with his Presence !
Prove it! Do any miracles lately? You must be a god becuase you can see peoples souls and automatically judge them as not improved after Communion. Or maybe you would like to see them rolling all over the floor like a good ole tent revivial.
But alas, no, even then would you be swayed. The Lord has blessed us with numerous Eucharistic miracles, but that doesn't matter to you. You have declared yourself saved for all eternity oh most omnipotent one....
Otis
Correct me if I am wrong, Otis, but was not Pentecost the point at which believers began to be filled with the Holy Spirit? Did this stop? If so, I am not sure what to say........ If not, then what is your argument? Can you tell who is saved? Not trying to be rude at all. I just do not understand your post.
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Peace,
Wes
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<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/4/2008 2:43:28 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 995
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
I am already indwelt with his Presence !
Prove it! Do any miracles lately? You must be a god becuase you can see peoples souls and automatically judge them as not improved after Communion. Or maybe you would like to see them rolling all over the floor like a good ole tent revivial.
But alas, no, even then would you be swayed. The Lord has blessed us with numerous Eucharistic miracles, but that doesn't matter to you. You have declared yourself saved for all eternity oh most omnipotent one....
Otis
Prove he's not!!!
And as to the Eucharistic 'miracles', Jesus Himself said that even the elect would be deceived...
And sorry, it was God who made the declaration of his salvation... not manna...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/4/2008 5:44:13 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Really. Care to "enlighten" me? The Eucharist as celebrated by Catholics at the Mass is the continuing participation by the faithful in the singular, one-time sacrifice of Jesus. It is not a "re-" anything.
So this whole notion of "re-crucifying" or "re-living" His death or "re-sacrificing" Him or any other such thing is the figment of some country pastor's imagination, aimed at maligning or otherwise mis-representing what is going on during Mass, presumably to do as has been effectively done with you - to keep you away.
As I suggested, attendence at a session or two of RCIA would clear this right up for you. You might learn other things that you didn't know as well.
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When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/5/2008 4:53:41 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
kelman
one select verse?
What I meant is the John 6 "bread of life" verse. I think you are guilty of that which you ascribe to others - of taking "select few and then interpret the others to mean something other than what they mean".
Christ continually spoke in parables and metaphorical language. Clearly this was also the case in John 6 where He spoke of Himself being "the bread of life". Instead, the bread is imbued with mystical powers which, of course, necessitates an elite hierarchy empowered to perform the mystical miracle.
The elite hierarchy and all its attendant selfserving commandments reminds me of some governmental bureaucracies. The hierarchy must justify its existence by perpetuating various procedures of which, of course, only it is capable of performing.....it's a good gig.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/5/2008 4:55:09 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
No less than serving as an antidote to protect the soul from mortal sins, Communion is “an antidote by which we are freed from our daily venial sins” (Council of Trent, October 11, 1551). Is there any more evidence needed to demonstrate RC just threw away the Book?
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 7/25/2008 9:48:10 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
Joined: 7/10/2008
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in John 6:45-59, Jesus says that He is the bread from heaven, and that the bread that He will give is His flesh for the life of the world. Then He says that unless we eat His flesh and drink His blood, we have no life in us. The Jews understood literally and, like your daughter, questioned such a teaching. Jesus became even more literal about eating His flesh and drinking His blood. Then in John 6:66, it says that many of Jesus' disciples left Jesus because they could not accept such a teaching.
Did Jesus say "Hey come back here, I was only speaking symbolically!" No, He didn't. That is because they understood Him correctly, and that was literally.
In 1 Cor. 11:27, Saint Paul says if we partake of the bread unworthily, we are guilty of profaning (literally, murdering) the body and blood of Christ. Ask your daughter, if the Eucharist is just a symbol, then how can we be guilty of profaning Christ's body and blood? You can't murder a symbol. This means that either the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, or St. Paul (the divinely-inspired writer) is imposing an unjust penalty on us.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 7/25/2008 9:49:30 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
Joined: 7/10/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
Jesus Himself said that even the elect would be deceived...
That means you could be too.
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