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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/5/2008 11:39:06 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
I believe that to continue to misunderstand in the same way after being corrected - with explanation supplied, and authoritative source cited (I could have just cited Scriptures, but then we get back to "interpretation", which leads Catholics to the Catechism), is to begin to cross over the line from "misunderstand" to "misappropriate" or "misrepresent".
Show us this topic in The Bible !!!
I would love to see it...really !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/5/2008 12:07:56 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Remember, this is a minute sliver of the RCC.
Talk to other RC, they will say the opposite.
Not if they understand the teachings of the Catholic Church.
quote:
The unrefutable fact is that RC do pray to Mary.
It is perfectly acceptable as a Catholic to say that one prays to the saints and Mary. The problem lies with what the word Pray means in regard to the saints and what it means in regard to God. Catholics understand that prayers to Mary/Saints are requests for their prayers. Not sure how many times it can be said but I figured I would do it again. I needed a break from packing anyway!
quote:
So, why do they RC here pretend ?
None of the Catholics here are pretending.
quote:
As you said, they don't have a way out.
Funny my church has a door through which I am free to leave and free to enter. I hope yours does too!
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/5/2008 12:10:44 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
I believe that to continue to misunderstand in the same way after being corrected - with explanation supplied, and authoritative source cited (I could have just cited Scriptures, but then we get back to "interpretation", which leads Catholics to the Catechism), is to begin to cross over the line from "misunderstand" to "misappropriate" or "misrepresent".
Show us this topic in The Bible !!!
I would love to see it...really !
We've all been there and done that - if only there was a T-shirt!
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/5/2008 4:43:46 PM
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2Preacher
Posts: 142
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quote:
So, why do they RC here pretend ?
As you said, they don't have a way out.
It's the party line and they must toe it.
They are NOT allowed a voice of dissent.
And this is the saddest thing about the whole thing. This is the same thing which happens in other churches where the "believers" fail to study the Word for themselves and merely repeat from "rote" the teachings of their church.
2Preacher
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/5/2008 4:51:14 PM
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Bonlee
Posts: 37
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ORIGINAL: Bonlee
"Had he (pope) no faith in the efficacy of his prayer or the efficacy of the All mighty Triune God to make it happen - or - was he elevating Mary to be equal to their "efficacy"? Do They need some extra "help"?
Response: Catholicandloveit:
I don't know why some Catholic websites give deffinitions and others don't. I don't know why the Pope used Invoke and not Pray, to me when talking about the saints those two words are interchangable. I don't think that my prayers need extra help by asking (invoking) the saints, just like I don't think I need my earthly families prayers to make mine worthy of Gods attention. I also don't see Invoke as a new way of contacting a saint, Invoke means to ask, a deffinition of pray is to ask.
As for the game, I believe the Sooners won, and MI Lost (they did not play each other.)
Pax,
Mary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi Catholicandloveit
I just copied the last paragraph from my original post - the one you were replying too above....that was the last few questions I think you may have been referring too in your last post to me.
Moving is crazy enough in itself - let alone trying to keep up in one of these forums!!!! Good luck to you, look forward to seeing you in here again once you get settled.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/5/2008 4:57:33 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
And this is the saddest thing about the whole thing. This is the same thing which happens in other churches where the "believers" fail to study the Word for themselves and merely repeat from "rote" the teachings of their church. I may dissent all I want - I just have to do it outside communion with the Church, as you gentlemen are doing...
As to "having to toe the party line", I would describe it as "desiring to toe the party line", because I find all the other party lines discussed here rife with contradiction, incompleteness and error, and being subject to individual talents responsible for the individual discernment. That is...if I can even figure out where the line is, and whether or not its a line or a circle or a dodecahedron...
I see real unity here, because it is clear where the "not Catholic" crowd lines up. However, if I were to examine what you believe in the affirmative (discussing what you believe, rather than what you deny), then all of the sudden - conflict. That is - if I can even find a definitive statement of just what is accepted and believed, regarding faith and its practice (let's discuss Sacraments amongst the three of you, shall we...?)
Pardon me if the "party line" I seek and choose to toe is from a less whimsical, more authoritative source...in my view.
quote:
Doghouse, I do want to thank you for attempting to clarify and answer my questions - I do sincerely appreciate the effort you made. Thank you, ma'am. My time gets limited, so sometimes I work rather fast and furiously, and I just don't quite get the point across the way I might if I had more time.
You seem like a kind-hearted, good soul to me, and we are known by our fruits....this is what reflects the quality of our faith relationship and our state of Grace, I believe.
Good luck with the move, Mary. May all go smoothly, and may all your "war stories" from the experience be humorous...
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 9/5/2008 5:11:57 PM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/5/2008 5:35:28 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
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Bonlee and Doghouse - Thanks for the well wishes with the move! I am ready for it to be over - talk to you all soon I hope!
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/5/2008 7:57:23 PM
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Bonlee
Posts: 37
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Quite the contrary, "denominationalism" "plagued" the early Christian church as well. There were the Judaizers. There were the guys who decided to sin more because that way God could provide more grace. There were the gentile believers. Some thought eating food sacrificed to idols was okay, others didn't. That's just to name a few of the more obvious ones from Paul's letters, and Acts.
Some of them were corrected. Some were corrected only inasmuch as they were told to leave others who didn't practice exactly as they did alone, as in the case of the Judaizers. The Judaizers were not told to stop practicing as they practiced... instead, they were told to leave their Gentile brethren alone on the "Jewish parts" and accept them in love as fellow heirs in Christ.
It's interesting that you bring up baptism. There are arguments, sure, but they tend toward the "when" and "how", not "whether". Interestingly, the Catholics have chosen both a "how" (sprinkling) and "when" (infant) that occurs nowhere in the Scripture. But, none of this is really the topic. We're supposed to be talking about praying to the saints and Mary, which is yet another practice that occurs nowhere in the Scripture. And it is this practice that makes communion difficult between Catholics, who believe it's a valid practice, and Protestants, who believe it ranges anywhere between ineffectiveness to outright heresy. Even inside the Catholic church itself, there have always been different rites. There have been schisms. There have been massive fights. There still are. Groups like Opus Dei, Cursillo, Legion of Mary, Regnum Christi, Neocatechumenal Way, Focolare, Communion of Liberation, Society of Saint Pius, International Fatima Rosary Crusade, etc. There is no practical difference between the rites and sects found in the RCC, and the denominations found in the Protestant churches. Both are a matter of personal preference in practice and non-critical doctrine.
And, as usual, in looking at the Catholic severe distaste for Protestantism and their refusal to include Protestants as part of the Church that belongs to Christ, I must again point out that the only reason Protestantism exists is the fact that the RCC became unbearably corrupt, even to members of its own clergy.
>>>>>>>>>>
Hi Zhi
What an excellent post - I've tried at times to explain the same thing (3 first paragraphs) and it never came out as clearly as you've done.
With regards to the last paragraph, I saw a posting elsewhere where the thought was put forward that the word "Protestant" is now always related to the "Reformation" period of time - just as "Catholic" is always related to around 400 A.D.ish times - where in actuality the Christians of the early church were made up of similar varying groups (as in your first 2 paragraphs) - and some fell away completely while other assimilated into the "Catholic" church voluntarily , as they believed the doctrines that were established back then....but as new doctrines were introduced or changed...or when the teaching of various traditions were introduced that seemed to contradict what they were to "hold on to as being true" or when the "power" of the church became out of control....it invariably eventuated in the Reformation.
It went on to state that while Protestants are accused of starting a new religion with the Reformation - they were in fact going back to the original teachings and traditions that the early Christians embraced. The Word and the true teachings of the Apostles.
I hope that makes sense and I did justice to that viewpoint...in any event thanks for your clarity in your postings.
To tie this in with the topic at hand "Praying to the Saints & Mary"....IMHO...this is just another new doctrine that has crept in slowly, being developed and accepted to a point where it's coming close to having a "fourth" person added to the Trinity...if it hasn't already been done in the hearts and minds of some already.
< Message edited by Bonlee -- 9/5/2008 8:26:55 PM >
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/5/2008 8:19:12 PM
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Bonlee
Posts: 37
Joined: 8/7/2008
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quote:
So, why do they RC here pretend ?
As you said, they don't have a way out.
It's the party line and they must toe it.
They are NOT allowed a voice of dissent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Response 2Preacher
And this is the saddest thing about the whole thing. This is the same thing which happens in other churches where the "believers" fail to study the Word for themselves and merely repeat from "rote" the teachings of their church.
2Preacher
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yes...so true.
2Preacher - were you able to go over the verses from the bible that Catholicandloveit posted awhile back with regards to "praying to the Saints and Mary".
I admit, I haven't had the time, was hoping to see some posts on them, and will try myself to look them all up at some point.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/5/2008 8:45:08 PM
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2Preacher
Posts: 142
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Bonlee:
I am working on it but it is getting quite long. I copied them to "wordpad" so I could take some time an work on them a few at at time. That is probably how I will have to post them to the forum. The notes are getting quite extensive.
Thanks for asking.
2Preacher
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/5/2008 9:56:31 PM
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mariadreamer
Posts: 256
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: va
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quote:
"Praying to the Saints & Mary"....IMHO...this is just another new doctrine that has crept in slowly
I fully understand what you are saying that the protestants claim to "go back" to the original teachings, I used to hold that view myself. However, focusing on the topic, what evidence do you have that the early church did not pray to the saints? Who defines what is a "new doctrine" and what is a "biblical doctrine"? What makes you think it is a new doctrine? Does "pray" mean "worship" to you?
(BTW not only Roman Catholics pray to saints, but all Christian bodies that trace back to apostolic times.)
_____________________________
Christ is risen from the dead,
by death He has trampled down death,
and on those in the tombs bestowing life!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/6/2008 12:05:29 AM
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Bonlee
Posts: 37
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mariadreamer
quote:
"Praying to the Saints & Mary"....IMHO...this is just another new doctrine that has crept in slowly
I fully understand what you are saying that the protestants claim to "go back" to the original teachings, I used to hold that view myself. However, focusing on the topic, what evidence do you have that the early church did not pray to the saints? (When I say “early church” – I mean THE early church – Jesus never taught this when He preached on the hillsides – there is no record of the Apostles teaching this) Who defines what is a "new doctrine" and what is a "biblical doctrine"? ( When I use the term “new doctrine” – I’m meaning something that wasn’t taught by Jesus or his Apostles….a new teaching or that has been introduced or developed over a period of time…in any faith/denomination.)
I’ve seen the expression “biblical doctrine” on some of these forums and I’m assuming it must mean a doctrine that is from the bible of course.)
What makes you think it is a new doctrine?
(Referring to specifically “praying to the saints” – is this really a doctrine of Jesus or the Apostles, or is it something that was introduced later and just progressed?)
Does "pray" mean "worship" to you?
(Prayer, for me personally, always means worship – they are inseparable –I can’t go before His throne of grace without desiring to worship Him – the act in itself is sacred and when all the honour and glory is focused on Him – it just happens.)
(BTW not only Roman Catholics pray to saints, but all Christian bodies that trace back to apostolic times.)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/6/2008 12:15:10 AM
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Bonlee
Posts: 37
Joined: 8/7/2008
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Hi Mariadreamer -
quote:
(BTW not only Roman Catholics pray to saints, but all Christian bodies that trace back to apostolic times.)
Sorry - sleepy eyed here and missed the last line of your post (above).
Not sure what you mean by “all Christian bodies” here or actually what the whole sentence is trying to imply? Could you explain that a bit more please.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/6/2008 4:50:42 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
It is perfectly acceptable as a Catholic to say that one prays to the saints and Mary. The problem lies with what the word Pray means in regard to the saints and what it means in regard to God. Catholics understand that prayers to Mary/Saints are requests for their prayers. Not sure how many times it can be said but I figured I would do it again. I needed a break from packing anyway! I bolded the part I'm responding to. The reason it requires frequent responses is because the very prayers used belie what you say. Therefore, responses such as this become necessary.
Even the prayers I just posted concerning Joseph contain words of adoration and ascribe impossible, unscriptural abilities to him.
Joseph is asked by the suppliant "to preserve me from every defilement of soul and body". Joseph is further asked to "protect me and my family from all evil as you did the Holy Family". The suppliant "consecrates" himself to Joseph.
So, even from these relatively simple prayers, it is plain that "Catholics understand that prayers to Mary/Saints are requests for their prayers." is not true. We see no requests for Joseph's prayers.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/6/2008 4:52:51 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mariadreamer
However, focusing on the topic, what evidence do you have that the early church did not pray to the saints? We know that no one in the entire OT prayed to anyone other than God. We know that Jesus Christ never taught to pray to anyone other than God. We know the Apostles never taught to pray to anyone other than God.
That should be sufficient evidence for anyone desiring to do the will of God.
quote:
Who defines what is a "new doctrine" and what is a "biblical doctrine"? Obviously, it's a "new doctrine" when it cannot be found in Scripture. One example would be the "new doctrine" of praying to the saints and Mary which can be found no where in Scripture.
quote:
Does "pray" mean "worship" to you? Of course it does. Praying is one way we worship God, isn't it?
quote:
(BTW not only Roman Catholics pray to saints, but all Christian bodies that trace back to apostolic times.) All Christian churches "trace back" to apostolic times. The real question is what Christian churches actually follow apostolic teachings?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/8/2008 5:01:19 PM
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Bonlee
Posts: 37
Joined: 8/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
It is perfectly acceptable as a Catholic to say that one prays to the saints and Mary. The problem lies with what the word Pray means in regard to the saints and what it means in regard to God. Catholics understand that prayers to Mary/Saints are requests for their prayers. Not sure how many times it can be said but I figured I would do it again. I needed a break from packing anyway! I bolded the part I'm responding to. The reason it requires frequent responses is because the very prayers used belie what you say. Therefore, responses such as this become necessary.
Even the prayers I just posted concerning Joseph contain words of adoration and ascribe impossible, unscriptural abilities to him.
Joseph is asked by the suppliant "to preserve me from every defilement of soul and body". Joseph is further asked to "protect me and my family from all evil as you did the Holy Family". The suppliant "consecrates" himself to Joseph.
So, even from these relatively simple prayers, it is plain that "Catholics understand that prayers to Mary/Saints are requests for their prayers." is not true. We see no requests for Joseph's prayers.
I wanted to check for myself and searched a Catholic website regarding prayers to the Saints and Mary.
This is what came up.
Note: the first two - to Jesus and to the Trinity - seem pretty complete and full to me.
Act of Consecration to Jesus
Lord Jesus Christ, I consecrate myself today anew and without reserve to your divine Heart. I consecrate to you my body with all its senses, my soul with all its faculties, my entire being. I consecrate to you all my thoughts, words and deeds, all my sufferings and labors, all my hopes, consolations and joys. In particular I consecrate to you this poor heart of mine so that it may love only you and may be consumed as a victim in the fire of your love.
I place my trust in you without reserve and I hope for the remission of my sins through your infinite mercy. I place within your hands all my cares and anxieties. I promise to love you and to honor you till the last moment of my life, and to spread, as much as I can, devotion to your most Sacred Heart.
Do with me what you will, my Jesus. I deserve no other reward except your greater glory and your holy love. Take this offering of myself and give me a place within your divine Heart forever. Amen.
CONSECRATION TO THE TRINITY
O everlasting and Triune God, I consecrate myself wholly to you today. Let all my days offer you ceaseless praise, My hands move to the rhythm of your impulses, My feet be swift in your service, My voice sing constantly of you, My lips proclaim your message, My eyes perceive you everywhere, And my ears be attuned to your inspirations. May my intellect be filled with your wisdom, My will be moved by your beauty, My heart be enraptured with your love, And my soul be flooded with your grace. Grant that every action of mine be done For your greater glory And the advancement of my salvation.
Amen.
To me it appears evident from the two above prayers, that the prayer's complete attention and focus and all the honour and glory is given to God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. AS IT SHOULD BE.AS HE EXPECTS IT TO BE.[/
But what happens now in the following prayers - where is the honour and glory given - and who is the centre of "focus"?
ACT OF CONSECRATION TO THE BLESSED TRINITY
With all my heart I praise Thee, Most Holy Virgin above all Angels and Saints in Paradise, Daughter of the Eternal Father, and I consecrate to Thee my soul with all its faculties.
Say the Hail Mary...With all my heart I praise Thee, Most Holy Virgin above all Angels and Saints in Paradise, beloved Mother of the Son of God, and I consecrate to Thee my body with all its senses.
With all my heart I praise Thee, Most Holy Virgin above all Angels and Saints in Paradise, beloved Spouse of the Holy Ghost, and I consecrate to Thee my heart with all its affections, and beseech Thee to obtain for me from the Most Holy Trinity all the graces necessary for salvation. Say the Hail Mary...
(Note: The Trinity only gets a "mention" here, althought it's supposed to be a an "Act"of Consecration to the Blessed Trinity - question? - if the person praying has already "consecrated their very SOUL/ALL THEIR SENSES/THEIR HEART to MARY - is there really any room left for the Most Holy Trinity?????)
Act of Consecration to Saint Joseph
O dearest Saint Joseph,
I consecrate myself to your honour
and give myself to you, that you may always be my father, 
my protector and my guide
in the way of salvation. ("guide" = Holy Spirit?)
Obtain for me a greater purity of heart
and fervent love of the interior life. (office of the Holy Spirit?)
After your example may I do all my actions
for the greater glory of God,
in union with the Divine Heart of Jesus
and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
O Blessed Saint Joseph,
pray for me,
that I may share in the peace
and joy of your holy death.
Act of Consecration to the Blessed Virgin Mary
I.
I venerate thee with all my heart,
O Virgin most holy,
above all Angels and Saints in paradise,
as the daughter of the Eternal Father,
and to thee I consecrate my soul with all its powers.
Hail Mary...
II.
I venerate thee with all my heart,
O Virgin most holy,
above all Angels and Saints in paradise,
as the Mother of the only begotten Son,
and to thee I consecrate my body with all its senses.
Hail Mary...
III.
I venerate thee with all my heart,
O Virgin most holy,
above all Angels and Saints in paradise,
as the beloved Spouse of the Spirit of God,
and to thee I consecrate my heart and all its affections,
imploring thee to obtain for me from the Most Holy Trinity
all the means of salvation.
Hail Mary...
Act of Oblation to the Blessed Virgin Mary
My Queen! my Mother!
I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self.
Wherefore, O loving Mother,
as I am thine own,
keep me, defend me,
as thy property and possession.
Amen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't see any "just asking" for their support in prayers, or "just asking" them to pray .
I'd be interested in the opinions of the Catholic posters and how they understand these prayers?[/b]
To Whom are we supposed to CONSECRATE our whole HEART/BODY/SOUL/SENSES too?[/color]
And why if we can/have already done it to God/Jesus/The Holy Spirit - would we even contemplate or think that we can/or should do it to someone else?[/color]
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/8/2008 6:39:37 PM
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2Preacher
Posts: 142
Joined: 2/7/2008
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Why would we indeed consecrate ourselves to any one other than Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit?
2Preacher
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/8/2008 6:54:58 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
I'd be interested in the opinions of the Catholic posters and how they understand these prayers? I'll do just one of them - what say applies to the rest.
quote:
O dearest Saint Joseph,
I consecrate myself to your honour
and give myself to you, that you may always be my father,
my protector and my guide
in the way of salvation. ("guide" = Holy Spirit?)
Obtain for me a greater purity of heart
and fervent love of the interior life. (office of the Holy Spirit?)
After your example may I do all my actions
for the greater glory of God,
in union with the Divine Heart of Jesus
and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
O Blessed Saint Joseph,
pray for me,
that I may share in the peace
and joy of your holy death.
Let's start with the following context - the goodness and righteousness of Joseph is the result of Joseph operating Joseph under the grace of God, obtained in faith. So all the work and acts of Joseph, his actions and his choices, reflect the goodness of God. To recognize God as the source of righteousness, and not Joseph as the source of righteousness - is to worship God, not Joseph. Joseph is the canvas - grace is the paint, God is the artist.
Having said that:
quote:
O dearest Saint Joseph,
I consecrate myself to your honour
and give myself to you, that you may always be my father, We are talking about the example and lesson of Joseph here. The hono(u)r of Joseph belongs to and is a reflection of God and the action of God's grace. By "giving ourselves to" Joseph, we are talking about abandoning our ways and taking up his example. Joseph is the patron foster-father - he accepted and raised a child that was not his own or of his blood, but the Son of God.
quote:
my protector and my guide
in the way of salvation. Again - the key word here is example. By reflecting on the example of Joseph, we can see areas in our own lives where we might more fully cooperate with the grace of God, rather than resist it. Is Joseph saved? Is he in eternal presence with God? If so, then the example of his life would be an effective guide for one seeking the same.
quote:
Obtain for me a greater purity of heart
and fervent love of the interior life. (office of the Holy Spirit?) The prayers of the holy are effective, are they not? Is Joseph holy? Might his prayers for our causes be effective in obtaining what we seek for our causes, especially if we know that our causes are one and the same with his? If Joseph prays that Christians love Christ more deeply, do we think that prayer might be answered? Do we think that prayer is nonsense?
quote:
After your example may I do all my actions
for the greater glory of God,
in union with the Divine Heart of Jesus
and the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Here, the word example is specifically cited. Jesus is Divine, and Catholics believe Mary is immaculate ("...full of grace..." per Luke 1). Is one who is "full of grace" soiled? Does the efficacy of grace expire or wear off for the fully sanctified? If so, would you see souls dropping out of heaven?
quote:
O Blessed Saint Joseph,
pray for me,
that I may share in the peace
and joy of your holy death. Pray for me, Joseph.
Now - what was your point? If you are interested in how Catholics view these prayers, here is the opinion of one Catholic for you.
Catholics come at these prayers with a belief, knowledge and context that the communion of Saints and intercessory prayers are as they are taught in the Church. They do not come at these with the context of trying to make these prayers say something they are not, namely
• That Catholics worship Saints
• That Catholics believe that a Saint can do anything more than offer their prayers for our causes, because as Chrstians - their causes are our causes
• That Catholics attribute the goodness and righteousness of the Saint to the Saint, and not to God, who's grace offered and accepted by these people led to the very actions and choices for which they are honored and respected by Catholics
• That the prayers of the holy are not only not effective, but that the holy Saints are eternally dead and incapable of living eternally in the presence of God, as promised by Scriptural promise and instruction
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When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/8/2008 10:02:51 PM
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2Preacher
Posts: 142
Joined: 2/7/2008
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quote:
Catholics come at these prayers with a belief, knowledge and context that the communion of Saints and intercessory prayers are as they are taught in the Church. They do not come at these with the context of trying to make these prayers say something they are not, namely
• That Catholics worship Saints
• That Catholics believe that a Saint can do anything more than offer their prayers for our causes, because as Chrstians - their causes are our causes
• That Catholics attribute the goodness and righteousness of the Saint to the Saint, and not to God, who's grace offered and accepted by these people led to the very actions and choices for which they are honored and respected by Catholics
• That the prayers of the holy are not only not effective, but that the holy Saints are eternally dead and incapable of living eternally in the presence of God, as promised by Scriptural promise and instruction
Doghouse:
Please don't take this the wrong way, but if "Catholics come at these prayers with a belief, knowledge and context that the communion of Saints and intercessory prayers are as they are taught in the Church." and this is the only way they view them, then why do the prayers say the things they say?
If words don't mean what they say when read, why even use them? Why not use a different set of terminology which reflects the true purpose of your prayer that you are simply "asking" for the favor of their prayers?
I just don't understand. The words of the prayers, the statements made in them, to me mean exactly what they are saying. In praying these prayers (i.e. like the one to Joseph and Mary) the suppliant is doing more than "asking" as in making a prayer request. I say that based only on the words of the prayers themselves. I just don't understand.
Not to beat a dead horse, but I also see NO SCRIPTURAL basis what ever for this practice and in MHO it is based entirely on the teachings of MEN and not NOT God or his word.
Jesus warned against "vain repetitions" in Matthew 6:7 " But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."
The word "vain" means "empty" or "useless". Aside from the spiritual discipline taught in "rote" prayers, what is their usefulness?
I know in my own personal life anything that I do "repetitively" eventually becomes nothing more than a an empty ritual or at least tends to become that way because of my human nature.
Jesus was addressing the prayer habits of his disciples in Matthew 6. He called "vain repetitions" a "heathen" practice.
At one time, I owned a Catholic prayer book. Within it's pages there were many different prayers. All of them written out word for word. Some were for certain days or occasions. One in particular was to be prayed "before a crucifix".
The one thing that I noticed about this prayer book was that the prayers LEFT NO ROOM FOR THE INDIVIDUALITY OF THE SUPPLIANT. Why is it that the RCC seems to teach that an individuals own prayers are unacceptable to God ? Are only these prescribed prayers to be used? Why must they be written out? What is the purpose of this?
When I talk to God in prayer, I call him my father. I generally begin with some form of thanksgiving for his protection through the day or for his blessings on my life. Next comes confession of sins which I have committed and asking for personal forgiveness. I also pray for the needs of my family, friends, missionaries, my pastor, our church, and whatever else comes to mind. Sometimes I pray the words of Scripture back to God. Then I thank him for hearing my prayers and end them in Jesus name with the word "amen" which means "so be it."
Other than the Lord's prayer, I have never prayed a prayer by "rote" and yet I believe that God has heard every prayer of mine and answered them in some form based on the verses of Scripture which I have posted many times here. (Jeremiah 33:3 states "call unto me and I will answer thee and show thee great and mighty things which thou knowest not.") I have also never prayed to any "saint" for help. I have asked my living brothers and sisters in the church which I attend as well as other Christian friends of mine to pray with an for me and with me about some special need. I believe that God hears our collective prayers.
In both the OT and NT we never see anyone other than idolaters(for example: the 450 prophets of Baal in I Kings 18:17-40) praying to anyone other than God himself. Jesus didn't do it. The disciples did not do it. The Apostles did not do it. The OT prophets did not do it. If prayers to the saints are to be practiced why is this the case? If it is Scriptural, why is there no recorded case of any one practicing this in the Scriptures? Again, I just don't understand.
Your explanation of what is being done by Catholics when they pray to the saints and Mary is confusing to me because I read the Prayers and they seem to say one thing, but then your explanation says something completely different is going on. This why I am confused.
I am not attacking your beliefs only trying to understand them.
2Preacher
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/10/2008 2:52:51 PM
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Bonlee
Posts: 37
Joined: 8/7/2008
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Below is an example of how placing your faith in a "mother" rather than the "Father" may not get the exact results you had hoped for:
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A mother and baby camel are talking one day when the baby camel asks, "Mom why have I got these huge three toed feet?"
The mother replies, "Well son, when we trek across the desert your toes will help you to stay on top of the soft sand".
"OK" said the son. A few minutes later the son asks, "Mom, why have I got these great long eyelashes?"
"They are there to keep the sand out of your eyes on the trips through the desert", "Thanks Mom" replies the son.
After a short while, the son returns and asks, "Mom, why have I got these great big humps on my back??"
The mother, now a little impatient with the boy replies, "They are there to help us store water for our long treks across the desert, so we can go without drinking for long periods."
"That's great mom, so we have huge feet to stop us sinking, and long eyelashes to keep the sand from our eyes and these humps to store water.
But Mom", "Yes son?"
"Why the heck are we in the San Diego Zoo?"
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/10/2008 4:06:36 PM
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2Preacher
Posts: 142
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
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Bonlee:
I hope that you are not making light of the subject of this thread. I am sure that the many Catholics who engage in the practice of "praying to the saints and Mary" do not take it lightly. This practice is very much a part of their faith and is not a joke to them.
Just because you and I believe it to be an un-scriptural practice and basically useless, does not mean they do. It is irreverent to make light of something that another person in ALL sincerity practices as part of their faith. I sincerely hope that this is not your intention.
I do get the point (at least I think I did) of your little story about the camels though. All of the camels brilliantly designed features (huge three toed feet, long eyelashes, and humps) are designed for a specific purpose - to help them on their treks across the desert - to get them where they want to go safely. All of these features, designed with a specific purpose were useless to them "in the zoo."
Just as the camels feet, eyelashes, and humps were useless to them "in the zoo" the same is true of "praying to the saints and Mary" for help in "getting to Heaven". Praying to the saints and Mary for things that are ascribed Scripturally to God alone will not get the desired answers.
2Preacher
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"Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer." Psalm 19:14
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/11/2008 12:33:14 AM
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