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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/21/2008 6:13:59 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catlass
Is it going off topic to ask how I graciously ask my Mom not to pray to Mary in front of me? When engaging in prayer, your mom is like a fish out of water. It's how she was taught and something she's done all her life.
Surely, though, you can continue Bible study with her? And before each study, ask mom would she mind if you offered a quick prayer to God to bless your studies with enlightment? This way you'd be leading by example without actually forcing any issues.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/21/2008 6:23:29 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
I don't think you can ask your mom to pray with you in her own words and ask her not to pray to Mary. Why not? Is mom such a sensitive person? If mom knows such a thing creates a spiritual dilemna, I'm sure she would understand assuming the request is done with love and not attacking mom's own beliefs.
quote:
But keep in mind that when you ask her not to you are asking her to not share with you a part of her faith. That is simply not true! Mom is not "sharing" her faith when she insists on a prayer which causes dissension.
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I would be hurt if someone asked me to pray with them and then said it wasnt good enough. It's not a matter of being "hurt". Asking mom not to pray to human beings while they pray together seems quite a fair thing to do. She has private time for those prayers.
As for not worshipping Mary, you do so everytime you pray to her - prayer is a form of worship. Latri, dulia, hyperdulia? Holy Scripture knows no such distinctions. It is to God alone we offer the worship of prayer.
Besides, you should worship Mary, your faith ascribes every attribute of Christ's to her....whatever Christ did Mary did too. And in reality?... whatever Christ is....Mary is too.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/21/2008 6:27:28 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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quote:
Here's an idea...if you genuinely and truly believe that Catholics worship Mary, you are wasting your time in this discussion. If you are not open to the possibility that what you have thought and what you have been taught about Catholics could possibly be wrong, and that the Catholics might just be in the best position to know what they do and do not practice, then leave the discussion. Rather, I would suggest those who insist upon a non-exist difference in the worship of God and Mary are wasting their time in this discussion. Clearly, each and every one is not open to the possibility they are actually engaging in a blasphemous deed when they pray to anyone other than God. Why?....because Holy God has so declared on every page of Scripture - prayer to Him and Him alone.
Any honest appraisal of RC words and deeds concerning Mary would lead to the understanding that what they engage in is pure worship....and definitely more worship is given to Mary than to Jesus Christ.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/21/2008 6:29:22 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
Fortunately God is a God of grace, but even still, Mary didn't die for my sins.
I don't recall anyone here claiming that she did.
Well your popes sure do...she is called the "Savior of the people of Rome" ....even worship....try google....or your friendly RC websites....
ok, ok, so I don't get hounded try this one:
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/Salus-Populi-Romani.htm
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/21/2008 8:01:53 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Please refrain from unnecessary personal
attacks regarding my spiritual position.
This is a TOS violation as well as a failure to
exemplify Christain love and Jesus' Spirit.
I will pray you obtain patience !
St. Manna
Nice Sig Manna - and certainly not meant as an attack on a spiritual position, and done only out of Christian love right!
Prayers you obtain some tact!
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Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/21/2008 8:18:44 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
I don't think you can ask your mom to pray with you in her own words and ask her not to pray to Mary. Why not? Is mom such a sensitive person? If mom knows such a thing creates a spiritual dilemna, I'm sure she would understand assuming the request is done with love and not attacking mom's own beliefs.
Is Mom such a sensitive person, couldn't the same thing be asked about Catlass? If Catlass knows her asking creates a spitirual dilemna why would she ask? I am sure Catlass would understand assuming that her moms request is done with love and not attacking Catlass beliefs.
Just wanted to turn yor post around because it works both ways and with that I am done talking to you about 2 people we don't know.
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As for not worshipping Mary, you do so everytime you pray to her - prayer is a form of worship.
Pray -has more then one deffinition. To ask (what Catholics do when they pray to the saints) and to worship (what Catholics do in prayers to God and what they saints do for us in their prayers to God). Please read and reread these deffinitions because I feel like I post them to you ALL the time! There are free dictionaries online if you don't believe me.
quote:
It is to God alone we offer the worship of prayer.
Kelman - have you missed all the post were over and over Catholics here show that our church teaches the worship of God alone?
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Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/21/2008 8:28:29 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
Fortunately God is a God of grace, but even still, Mary didn't die for my sins.
I don't recall anyone here claiming that she did.
Well your popes sure do...she is called the "Savior of the people of Rome" ....even worship....try google....or your friendly RC websites....
ok, ok, so I don't get hounded try this one:
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/Salus-Populi-Romani.htm
For fun lets post the WHOLE thing and not half a thought.
"Following the prayer after Communion, the Dean of the College of Cardinals performs the rite of the final commendation and farewell. Standing next to the coffin with the other concelebrants, he invites those present to pray with these words:
Dear brothers and sisters, we entrust to the most gentle mercy of God the soul of our Pope John Paul, Bishop of the Catholic Church, who confirmed his brothers with belief in the resurrection.
We pray to God the Father through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit for the deceased, so that, ransomed by death, he may be received in his peace and that his body may rise on the last day.
The Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of the Apostles and savior of the people of Rome, intercede to God for us so that the face of his blessed Son may be shown to our Pope and comfort the Church with the light of the resurrection."
This is also found at http://www.ewtn.com/JohnPaul2/_mourning/ritessummary1.asp
in more detail if anyone cares  .
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/21/2008 11:56:02 AM
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Catholicandloveit
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Stellaluna -
"intercede to God for us" this was the part I wanted to point out. This is just asking Mary to go to God for us.
I am sorry that you find the Catholics here so different then the ones you know in RL. Although I bet you would find me much different in RL then on these forums, as I bet I would you too.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/21/2008 1:52:33 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
I believe the Catholics posting here are in a league of their own. Any Catholic posting regularly on this site IS definitely in a league of their own...
I can find all kinds a crackpot "whatever" from non-Catholic Christians, as well. The difference being that I know it is nonsense and a mis-approriation of Protestant faith, so I don't acknowledge it by posting it here.
Its a lesson some here could learn, as far as I am concerned....
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When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/21/2008 4:07:18 PM
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Bonlee
Posts: 37
Joined: 8/7/2008
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Doghouse
quote:
Any Catholic posting regularly on this site IS definitely in a league of their own...
I can find all kinds a crackpot "whatever" from non-Catholic Christians, as well. The difference being that I know it is nonsense and a mis-approriation of Protestant faith, so I don't acknowledge it by posting it here.
Its a lesson some here could learn, as far as I am concerned....
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Do I ever agree with that highlighted part! (my highlight above)
And I've learned it for sure!
(Referring to the post I put on here quoting from a website that had taken an excerpt from the book by "Ferraro" and had changed a word in one of the quotes....)
It was not done intentionally on my part...(the heading stated Official RCatholic ...etc.,etc.,) and in my haste and outright "self driven" attempt at trying to make a point - driven by my own ego - I didn't bother to read through and digest the whole content of the page I was on...I was so "pleased" to find something that I thought showed what everyone has been talking about...that I eagerly grabbed and ran with it!
It's obvious that by quoting anything from a site or from a person with opposing views to any topic that another holds true, would be groundless in their eyes right from the beginning....and especially if a word has been changed...or a whole excerpt has been altered in some way to suit that person's agenda.
Not honest and not fair and totally counter productive.
I apologize for my lack of investigation skills on that one...or more to the point...for my lack of "applying" them in the proper manner in this instance.
Back to my original method of using only official RCatholic websites or my favourite - the Vatican website - for doctrines/dogmas/catechism - official statements,etc.
God Bless!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/21/2008 4:39:24 PM
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Bonlee
Posts: 37
Joined: 8/7/2008
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Heading off for a few days of relaxation as the summer comes to an end!!
Will check in when we return!
God Bless
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/21/2008 9:50:52 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1780
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quote:
Any honest appraisal of RC words and deeds concerning Mary would lead to the understanding that what they engage in is pure worship....and definitely more worship is given to Mary than to Jesus Christ.
Honesty certainly is the real issue here. As I stated earlier honesty demands that the RCC proclaim "We do worhsip Mary and we are not ashamed of our idolatry".
But when a religious system is fundamentally deceptive (as are all the cults) you will never get an honest admision of guilt. As we observe in our criminal justice system, every perpetrator pleads "Not guilty" before he is convicted.
"The cult of Mary" has been nourished by the RCC since its inception. Today it is even more entrenched than ever before. Therefore beware of all "gifts" emanating from Rome.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/21/2008 10:22:13 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 565
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Any honest appraisal of RC words and deeds concerning Mary would lead to the understanding that what they engage in is pure worship....and definitely more worship is given to Mary than to Jesus Christ.
Did you ever wonder why Catholics are accused of worshiping Mary, yet there are no prayers to Mary in the mass, which is the highest form of prayer for a Catholic?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/21/2008 10:41:44 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Any honest appraisal of RC words and deeds concerning Mary would lead to the understanding that what they engage in is pure worship....and definitely more worship is given to Mary than to Jesus Christ.
Did you ever wonder why Catholics are accused of worshiping Mary, yet there are no prayers to Mary in the mass, which is the highest form of prayer for a Catholic?
So are you saying that the Catholics even know that Mary shouldn't be prayed to? 
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/21/2008 10:54:54 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 565
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
So are you saying that the Catholics even know that Mary shouldn't be prayed to?
Not at all. All I am saying is that if we really did worship Mary, shouldn't she be a central part of the Mass?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 3:41:27 PM
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2Preacher
Posts: 142
Joined: 2/7/2008
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Ezra:
It is one thing for the Word of God to offend someone. It is quite another for the person quoting the Word of God to offend. After reading your posts, I agree with Catholicandloveit that you should learn some "tact".
I realize this can be frustrating. I get terribly frustrated here as well. I have felt personally attacked as well. I am not saying "back down on your beliefs" only that you need to use a little more tactful language in your posts.
2Preacher.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 4:20:32 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 565
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
I've only convicted the Catholics of blasphemy and they'll be as angry about it as the Pharisees were. So all the catholics have shown is that tact doesn't work any more than it did with the Pharisees, or most Catholics would have changed their minds here by now.
You've convicted us of blasphemy? And we are mad about it? You have made some allegations, and we have responded to them with patient responses.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 4:35:09 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 565
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
I've only convicted the Catholics of blasphemy and they'll be as angry about it as the Pharisees were. So all the catholics have shown is that tact doesn't work any more than it did with the Pharisees, or most Catholics would have changed their minds here by now.
You've convicted us of blasphemy? And we are mad about it? You have made some allegations, and we have responded to them with patient responses.
Since you disagree with; Exodus 20:4, Deuteronomy 4:15, Matthew 1:25, Luke 1:47, Matthew 23:9, Deuteronomy 18;11 and many more verses, then you obviously don't like the way God spoke His word either. So I consider it a compliment that you treat me the same way you treat God.
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Exodus 20:4
Ok, let's look at these verses:
quote:
You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth;
We don't worship idols. We don't disagree with that verse. Perhaps you should consider getting your facts straight before making an allegation.
quote:
"You saw no form at all on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire. Be strictly on your guard, therefore,
not to degrade yourselves by fashioning an idol to represent any figure, whether it be the form of a man or a woman,
of any animal on the earth or of any bird that flies in the sky,
of anything that crawls on the ground or of any fish in the waters under the earth.
Once again, this verse is talking about idols. Statues are not idols.
I will spare the rest of the verses. But you get the idea.
quote:
So I consider it a compliment that you treat me the same way you treat God.
In what way have we not treated you with respect and dignity?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 4:42:43 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
I've only convicted the Catholics of blasphemy and they'll be as angry about it as the Pharisees were. So all the catholics have shown is that tact doesn't work any more than it did with the Pharisees, or most Catholics would have changed their minds here by now.
You've convicted us of blasphemy? And we are mad about it? You have made some allegations, and we have responded to them with patient responses.
Since you disagree with; Exodus 20:4, Deuteronomy 4:15, Matthew 1:25, Luke 1:47, Matthew 23:9, Deuteronomy 18;11 and many more verses, then you obviously don't like the way God spoke His word either. So I consider it a compliment that you treat me the same way you treat God.
quote:
Exodus 20:4
Ok, let's look at these verses:
quote:
You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth;
We don't worship idols. We don't disagree with that verse. Perhaps you should consider getting your facts straight before making an allegation.
quote:
"You saw no form at all on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire. Be strictly on your guard, therefore,
not to degrade yourselves by fashioning an idol to represent any figure, whether it be the form of a man or a woman,
of any animal on the earth or of any bird that flies in the sky,
of anything that crawls on the ground or of any fish in the waters under the earth.
Once again, this verse is talking about idols. Statues are not idols.
I will spare the rest of the verses. But you get the idea.
quote:
So I consider it a compliment that you treat me the same way you treat God.
In what way have we not treated you with respect and dignity?
That verse said not to carve even an image of a man or a woman. And considering that there are pictures of Pope John Paul bowing down, kissing and praying to a statue of Mary, that's precisely why there is no good reason to carve even a statue of Mary! So the catholics absolutely carve statues of people as idols because they worship them by bowing down, kissing and praying to them just like the pagans do with their gods which are nothing more than objects of stone.
But the Catholics have as much contempt for God's word as they have for mine and the words of others who believe the bible. That's why they even omitted the commandment in Exodus 20:4, thinking that they can erase any of God's Word.  So not only are the catholics proud of disobeying God's word and breaking His commandments, they even think they can omit one of His commandments!...as if you think you can fool God.
So you have zero defense of your position except that you place the pope's words above God's word. That proves that you worship people, not the living God. So since you don't listen to God's Word, you're not going to listen to anyone who believes and follows God's Word. You will always be at odds with us.
And as to your other statements, Pr. 28:23, "He who rebukes a man will in the end gain more favor than he who has a flattering tongue."
< Message edited by Carico -- 8/22/2008 4:49:05 PM >
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Your contradiction again shows that even Catholics know that praying to Mary is blasphemous. 
He called the Pharisees (those who claimed to love God) "snakes!" and "A brood of vipers." I haven't done that yet.