|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/2/2008 5:27:55 AM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 914
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
There's no indication that the righteous man mentioned is dead. Except perhaps for a verse somewhere that goes something like "believe in me, and you will have eternal life". Presumably what makes a soul righteous is grace, and what yields grace is faith.
There are not two communions of faithful - there's only one. We don't leave one communion and join another when we die. Our Baptism seals us to the one single communion of the faithful, and through faith and acceptance of grace, we choose to remain in this community.
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/2/2008 6:04:35 AM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 914
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
Can you explain me then why the later church uses the Apocryphal gospel of James that was not canonized and never accepted, as "tradition" about the family of Mary and how she was conceived entered the temple etc, and sets also religious celebrations taken from the story of an apocryphal gospel ? I am only vaguely familiar with this book. I had always assumed that it was written in response to early Christians who demanded to know more about Mary's "back-story". As the information contained in it (my understanding is that the text was discovered in the same place as the earliest known text of the Gospel of Luke) doesn't really have any bearing on instructing Christians in faith or its practice, and since material regarding Mary at the time of Jesus birth contradicts Luke, which is accepted as authoritative, then this book was deemed un-authentic.
It doesn't necessarily follow the the entire book is fiction (although it may very well be...), it just means that it is not entirely true, or accepted to be such the way the Gospel of Luke is.
quote:
Or the apocryphal text De Obitu S. Dominae about her Dormition. All those traditions are taken from apocryphal gospels. I find that before most texts of any kind came into existence, there was a strong oral tradition that would have existed in order for there to be any motivation for someone to have scribed the work to begin with, and for someone to have preserved the scribed text in such a manner that we would even know of these documents today. De Obitu S. Dominae is the oldest text regarding the assumption of Mary, but it is not accepted as authoritative by the Church over Apostolic Tradition on the subject. That tradition states that Mary died in the presence of the Apostles, but that when her tomb was opened at the request of St. Thomas, the tomb was empty. Since it follows that if her remains were of value, they would have surfaced at some point, the conclusion drawn is that there are no remains of Mary. This was voiced by St. Juvenal at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD.
quote:
but the rule is that all Clergy should be celibate "Should be" not "must be"...there may be a thread on a celibate ministry. If not...there should be...
quote:
Those biblical truths changed and developed so many times. I disagree. This would be difficult to demonstrate as there have been many people that for centuries have attempted to pierce the notion of the infallibility of dogma within the Church. No one has managed it yet...
quote:
But the reformation didn't come for no reason. I have an opinion on this as well. There probably needs to be a thread for this discussion, as well...
quote:
As far I see we agree to disagree so far ...Indeed...nothing wrong with that...
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/2/2008 7:31:00 AM
|
|
|
texastweet
Posts: 428
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
You seem to have an odd idea of what we mean by dead, incidentally.
Agreeing with DH, it is many here who seem to take no account of our ability to be in heaven after our visit here on earth in mortal bodies. "today you will be in paradise", etc, etc. Or do you believe in soul sleep until the final judgement? Who were all those spirits flying around after the resurection?
Therefore once you get past that issue, it is an easy connection that in the spiritual realm we will be like the angels. I think there is a passage about that...
Otis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/2/2008 8:06:31 AM
|
|
|
1love1God1way
Posts: 2003
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
There's no indication that the righteous man mentioned is dead. Except perhaps for a verse somewhere that goes something like "believe in me, and you will have eternal life". Presumably what makes a soul righteous is grace, and what yields grace is faith.
Then why not just pray to every Christian who died? Why use a select list of saints with a select list of prayers?
_____________________________
-Ben-
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/2/2008 8:15:49 AM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1185
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
Except perhaps for a verse somewhere that goes something like "believe in me, and you will have eternal life". Presumably what makes a soul righteous is grace, and what yields grace is faith.
Eternal life does not mean that we don't die physically, though. This is very clearly laid out by Scripture.
1 Thess 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
As far as grace, faith does not yield grace, at least not to a Protestant. To a Protestant, grace is God's unmerited favor. We can't work hard enough to deserve it, we can't bargain to get more of it, it's something that God provides for us, granting us salvation, sanctification, and spiritual gifts, among other things. If anything, faith is possible because God has given us grace to be able to believe, and has given us grace by providing a path of salvation in which to have faith. It's not some "force" that people can get all charged up with by being good. As a result, since all grace comes from God, and in abundance to all of us, we do not see grace as being something that can be "passed along" by Mary, Francis, etc. People may be seen to show different measures of grace, but that's a matter of their spiritual maturity, relationship with God, and circumstances, not because they're better, well, grace-batteries, for a lack of a better term. This is a big reason why we do not consider praying to the saints to be particularly helpful (along with the fact that we don't think they can hear us.)
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Ephesians 1:7-8 "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding."
quote:
There are not two communions of faithful - there's only one. We don't leave one communion and join another when we die. Our Baptism seals us to the one single communion of the faithful, and through faith and acceptance of grace, we choose to remain in this community.
That's a nice thing to say, but given the various Pope's comments regarding Protestants, that doesn't seem to mesh with the rest of your doctrine, since apparently Protestants, for instance, can be saved without joining in the specific baptism rite of the Catholic Church. So, either there are multiple communions of the faithful (since Protestants are not "properly" baptised in your thinking but can still be "the faithful" by receiving salvation anyway) or there is one communion of the faithful and it doesn't require the seal of Catholic baptism.
“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church”
Otherwise... apples and oranges. "Christian" is a category. "Dead" and "not dead yet" are merely categorizations that can intersect the "Christian" categorization.
Out of curiosity, on this vein, do you think it is possible for a person to be Catholic and never pray to the saints or Mary, or is praying to the saints and Mary a requirement for being a proper Catholic? I'm curious.
edit: No, I'm not a "soul sleep" advocate. I'm merely pointing out that physical death is an incontrovertible reality for almost everyone, with notable exceptions like Elijah, Enoch, and of course Jesus Christ, who was in fact physically dead for 3 days, at which point He rose from the grave.
< Message edited by Zhi -- 6/2/2008 8:24:51 AM >
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/2/2008 9:06:53 AM
|
|
|
Soxfan
Posts: 1496
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Then why not just pray to every Christian who died? Why use a select list of saints with a select list of prayers?
Because the leaders of the RCC determine who are saints and which ones we are allowed to pray to (aka...worship)
Forget about that minor little part in Scripture (Matthew 6:9) where Christ tells us how to pray.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/2/2008 10:39:30 AM
|
|
|
martyfran
Posts: 544
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Because the leaders of the RCC determine who are saints and which ones we are allowed to pray to (aka...worship)
Forget about that minor little part in Scripture (Matthew 6:9) where Christ tells us how to pray.
So, I am to take it on your infallible authority, that we are to interpret the word prayer, in whatever context it is used, as a form of worship?
If that is the case, then no Christian should be a lawyer, because lawyers often worship the court.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/2/2008 1:13:48 PM
|
|
|
Asotos
Posts: 33
Joined: 5/31/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
I am only vaguely familiar with this book. I had always assumed that it was written in response to early Christians who demanded to know more about Mary's "back-story".
Any references on that ?
quote:
As the information contained in it (my understanding is that the text was discovered in the same place as the earliest known text of the Gospel of Luke) doesn't really have any bearing on instructing Christians in faith or its practice, and since material regarding Mary at the time of Jesus birth contradicts Luke, which is accepted as authoritative, then this book was deemed un-authentic.
My point here is that a lot of that tradition is based on vague sources. The bible haven't been canonized for no reason. Reading the 2nd and 3rd centuries fathers is obvious to the reader that they tried from then to define what was the divine scripture and what was not , simple cause Christianity was establishing and the students of the apostles like Polycarp where passed to the lord. There was no link to the apostles except their writings, and that written tradition is the one that judged every oral tradition and referenced in all early synods for the canons of the church.
As I said earlier I don't exclude any tradition but personally I see it under the light of the Bible and accordance to the history of the early church (from the few writings we have in our hands). In later Christian life a lot of Sophism has been used to define practices that in the first glance are not orthodox.
quote:
"Should be" not "must be"...there may be a thread on a celibate ministry. If not...there should be...
Playing with the words doesnt get us anywhere, here are the canons accepted by the catholic church:
First Lateran Council
Canon 3: We absolutely forbid priests, deacons, and subdeacons to associate with concubines and women, or to live with women other than such as the Nicene Council (canon 3) for reasons of necessity permitted, namely, the mother, sister, or aunt, or any such person concerning whom no suspicion could arise.
Canon 21: We absolutely forbid priests, deacons, subdeacons, and monks to have concubines or to contract marriage. We decree in accordance with the definitions of the sacred canons, that marriages already contracted by such persons must be dissolved, and that the persons be condemned to do penance
Second Lateran Council
Canon 6: We also decree that those who in the subdiaconate and higher orders have contracted marriage or have concubines, be deprived of their office and ecclesiastical benefice. For since they should be and be called the temple of God, the vessel of the Lord, the abode of the Holy Spirit, it is unbecoming that they indulge in marriage and in impurities.
Canon 7: Following in the footsteps of our predecessors, the Roman pontiffs Gregory VII, Urban, and Paschal, we command that no one attend the masses of those who are known to have wives or concubines. But that the law of continence and purity, so pleasing to God, may become more general among persons constituted in sacred orders, we decree that bishops, priests, deacons, subdeacons, canons regular, monks, and professed clerics (conversi) who, transgressing the holy precept, have dared to contract marriage, shall be separated. For a union of this kind which has been contracted in violation of the ecclesiastical law, we do not regard as matrimony. Those who have been separated from each other, shall do penance commensurate with such excesses
Council of Trent
If any one saith, that clerics constituted in sacred orders, or Regulars, who have solemnly professed chastity, are able to contract marriage, and that being contracted it is valid, notwithstanding the ecclesiastical law, or vow; and that the contrary is no thing else than to condemn marriage; and, that all who do not feel that they have the gift of chastity, even though they have made a vow thereof, may contract marriage; let him be anathema: seeing that God refuses not that gift to those who ask for it rightly, neither does He suffer us to be tempted above that which we are able
The Divine Scripture abouts Bishops and Elders Says:
1Tim 3:1-7 - KJV
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Tit 1:5-9 - KJV
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Is so profound the distortion from the apostles teaching that I have nothing to add here. Reading someone the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius or Clement will see that Apostles and Bishops and Priests and Deacons where married man. Clement is even suggesting that Paul was married. Now if Peter was a married man and the whole doctrine of the Catholic church is based on Peters supremacy over the other apostles, why the Pope is not married? Is he above Peter the first of the apostles ?
quote:
I disagree. This would be difficult to demonstrate as there have been many people that for centuries have attempted to pierce the notion of the infallibility of dogma within the Church. No one has managed it yet...
As I said earlier, there are things that been added afterwards, Saints, Relics, Priests, High Priest , religious celebrations, Icons etc etc there are dates that those things have been added and can be traced through history. Is obvious that the original Christianity distorted through the pass of centuries and with the mass influx of pagans that forced to believe or die. Read for example how Justin the Martyr describes the holly communion and how is been done today by both Catholic and Easter Orthodox.
quote:
I have an opinion on this as well. There probably needs to be a thread for this discussion, as well...
If there is not such a thread , I am sure will be a nice one and there will be knowledgeable people to add their thoughts and opinions
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/2/2008 1:18:59 PM
|
|
|
Ps103
Posts: 11589
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
|
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
The topic of this thread is Praying to the Saints and Mary?
The thread to discuss Priests, Nuns and Celibacy is HERE
Please keep this thread on topic.
Thanks!
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/2/2008 1:22:42 PM
|
|
|
Asotos
Posts: 33
Joined: 5/31/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
Pretty straight forward there. David is asking the angels to praise God.
Otis
Quoting a single passage from the Old testament in order to base a whole new Christian's approach while disregarding the whole of the bible and mostly the practice of the Orthodox Judaism is sophism. Jews never but never practiced prayers in angels only to God. It was so clear to them then as it is today, that I find really strange the use of such arguments.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/2/2008 1:27:17 PM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 914
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
Then why not just pray to every Christian who died? Why use a select list of saints with a select list of prayers? We could and we should - especially those close to us whom we have particular knowledge as to their possible sanctity (as in "my saintly grandmother...). No doubt we both know people who have gone on before us that we have no doubt as to the effectiveness of their prayers for various causes and concerns.
Folks who are canonized as Saints (with a capital "S") have demonstrated to the Church (or have been revealed to the Church, actually) as having particularly effective prayers, that produce genuine results for the causes invoked. That's where we get the idea of "patron" from - St. Anthony of Padua seems to be particularly effective when praying for return of lost or stolen items, among other causes (sailors, shipping, travel, etc.). This has been revealed to the Church by its demonstration - the requests for prayers to God by St. Anthony have been answered, and more often than perhaps another's prayers to God regarding the same causes.
If I knew that your prayers were particularly effective in support of a cause dear to me, and that your prayers were more effective than mine, or anyone else I knew (presumably because you are more righteous or in a better state of grace than I, or you have a particular standing in grace not available to me for whatever reason), I would ask for your advocacy for my cause. This, in effect, makes it our cause.
I don't see anything wrong or to be discouraged about this practice....it recognizes the action and effectiveness of God's grace in you, and it acknowledges God as the source of the grace, and not the you yourself. It is a way of seeing and acknowledging grace in others, and pointing that glory back to God.
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/2/2008 2:12:25 PM
|
|
|
texastweet
Posts: 428
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Quoting a single passage from the Old testament in order to base a whole new Christian's approach while disregarding the whole of the bible and mostly the practice of the Orthodox Judaism is sophism.
Asotos,
First of all, you should get used to fact that your opinions are going to get challenged and then you should realize that most posts are addressing a specific point as opposed to a term paper on a topic.
For example I was simply providing one example of from the OT that actually does show David exorting angels to praise God. This is by no means the complete answer on Catholic practices. Small chuncks work best around here and avoid the name calling.
Otis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/2/2008 6:49:35 PM
|
|
|
Asotos
Posts: 33
Joined: 5/31/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
Quoting a single passage from the Old testament in order to base a whole new Christian's approach while disregarding the whole of the bible and mostly the practice of the Orthodox Judaism is sophism.
Asotos,
First of all, you should get used to fact that your opinions are going to get challenged and then you should realize that most posts are addressing a specific point as opposed to a term paper on a topic.
For example I was simply providing one example of from the OT that actually does show David exorting angels to praise God. This is by no means the complete answer on Catholic practices. Small chuncks work best around here and avoid the name calling.
Otis
no offense was intended there neither name calling, I apologize if I offended you. I was stating my opinion on the matter, and the use of the word "sophism" is not towards you is towards the approach.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/2/2008 7:03:05 PM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 914
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
As far as grace, faith does not yield grace, at least not to a Protestant. Funny, I kind of thought I had read plenty of Protestants telling me here that grace is by faith - alone. So - grace is bestowed to Muslims, who clearly reject Jesus...? (because it is a free gift, in abundance for all, not merited, but freely given..etc.)
quote:
It's not some "force" that people can get all charged up with by being good. No - its the "stuff" that sanctifies us (sanctifying grace) and the stuff that influences us to choose good and right over evil and wrong (actual grace). So when Scripture speaks of the availability of grace and its affects, we are talking about "stuff" here, or substance - that is transferred to the faithful from God - freely, not merited - presented to us for our acceptance and our use.
quote:
we do not see grace as being something that can be "passed along" by Mary, Francis, etc. Catholics don't see it this way either. The source of all grace is God, through Jesus. Grace is only made available to us because of the death and resurrection of Jesus and the believer's faith in that and in the teachings and promises of faith.
quote:
So, either there are multiple communions of the faithful (since Protestants are not "properly" baptised in your thinking but can still be "the faithful" by receiving salvation anyway) or there is one communion of the faithful and it doesn't require the seal of Catholic baptism. As has been stated in other threads, Catholics recognize any Triune Baptism ("in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit..." - with water) as valid and as sealing the recipient to the Holy Spirit. However, from there it is up to the faithful to practice their faith, and Catholics believe that their's is the fullest and completest practice.
quote:
“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church” This is a statement of euchumenism that validates what I just said about the Baptism bit above. Many here on this site believe that Catholics teach that anyone not Catholic is condemned. THis is not true - no one can judge the state of another's soul. However, Catholics believe that their faith is the normative path to salvation, and that others are indeed incomplete, or in some cases, defective from error.
quote:
Out of curiosity, on this vein, do you think it is possible for a person to be Catholic and never pray to the saints or Mary, or is praying to the saints and Mary a requirement for being a proper Catholic? I'm curious. In my opinion, a Catholic may live his/her entire life, and never request any intecessory prayer from anyone. They would be perfectly accepted as Catholic by the CHurch, would freely partake of the Eucharist and would not suffer any ill effects from this election.
However, why would we deny help that may be available to us to strengthen our walk and to fortify our faith? Pride? Arrogance? Why would we short-change ourselves?
Why would we practice an abridged or diminshed faith?
quote:
No, I'm not a "soul sleep" advocate. I'm merely pointing out that physical death is an incontrovertible reality for almost everyone, with notable exceptions like Elijah, Enoch, and of course Jesus Christ, who was in fact physically dead for 3 days, at which point He rose from the grave. Amen, sis. The dog doesn't believe in the "rapture" as it is believed by some for this very reason. As humans we must die a physical death in order to be risen. There's no getting out of it - we all die someday.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 6/2/2008 7:11:54 PM >
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/2/2008 8:28:30 PM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1185
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
Funny, I kind of thought I had read plenty of Protestants telling me here that grace is by faith - alone. So - grace is bestowed to Muslims, who clearly reject Jesus...? (because it is a free gift, in abundance for all, not merited, but freely given..etc.)
Grace and mercy are bestowed on all of humanity daily in the form of God not smiting us all, which would be well within His rights. So, yes, a measure of grace is bestowed on Muslims, but if they don't accept the sacrificial grace presented by Jesus's death, then they do not accept and therefore do not receive the salvic grace, obviously.
quote:
No - its the "stuff" that sanctifies us (sanctifying grace) and the stuff that influences us to choose good and right over evil and wrong (actual grace). So when Scripture speaks of the availability of grace and its affects, we are talking about "stuff" here, or substance - that is transferred to the faithful from God - freely, not merited - presented to us for our acceptance and our use.
I'm not sure what you mean by "stuff". I have never considered grace to be a "substance", nor have I heard any other Protestant suggest that it's some sort of substance.
quote:
Catholics don't see it this way either. The source of all grace is God, through Jesus. Grace is only made available to us because of the death and resurrection of Jesus and the believer's faith in that and in the teachings and promises of faith.
Hmm. Then was my great aunt wrong when she explained in detail that Mary and the Saints are some sort of grace-repositories that can transfer grace to others like some sort of grace-battery?
quote:
As has been stated in other threads, Catholics recognize any Triune Baptism ("in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit..." - with water) as valid and as sealing the recipient to the Holy Spirit. However, from there it is up to the faithful to practice their faith, and Catholics believe that their's is the fullest and completest practice.
I guess I'm getting confused by the constant assertion that Protestants split up the faith community, followed by assertions that all the faithful are part of one community.
quote:
In my opinion, a Catholic may live his/her entire life, and never request any intecessory prayer from anyone. They would be perfectly accepted as Catholic by the CHurch, would freely partake of the Eucharist and would not suffer any ill effects from this election.
However, why would we deny help that may be available to us to strengthen our walk and to fortify our faith? Pride? Arrogance? Why would we short-change ourselves?
Why would we practice an abridged or diminshed faith?
Well, there are plenty of people who would say you're practicing an abridged or diminished faith since you don't handle snakes or drink poison. Naturally I would agree with the position I would expect from you, namely that to do either is a stupid idea and has nothing to do with your faith, and that the Bible, and for you, the Magisterium as well, does not state such activities to be an appropriate faith exercise.
So, I don't pray to the Saints, not due to any personal pride, and not because I don't want to strengthen my walk and fortify my faith, but because the lack of Scriptural support for the practice, and the dire warnings regarding trying to talk to the dead, frankly scare me off from considering it. I don't think this abridges or diminishes my faith in any way, obviously, any more than I think refusing to handle snakes and drink poison shows a lack of faith.
I guess my main issue with it is that the final books of the Bible (Revelations, for instance) were written at a point at which many of the Apostles had been martyred, Mary was no longer on this earth (avoiding getting into the particulars of how), etc. So, if praying to the Saints and Mary was really supposed to be such an important aspect of the Christian faith, surely it should have been mentioned somewhere in Scripture?
quote:
Amen, sis. The dog doesn't believe in the "rapture" as it is believed by some for this very reason. As humans we must die a physical death in order to be risen. There's no getting out of it - we all die someday.
Given all the other rabbit trails we've had this thread, I'm not going to risk the wrath of the moderators by saying much more about that. hehehe ;)
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/4/2008 5:27:30 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3760
Status: offline
|
quote:
Actually, Sola Scriptura is a very different view from the orthodox practice of Christianity of the ancient communions. It is a 16th century man-made invention, not part of the deposit of faith given the Apostles by Jesus, and retained by the Church through the magisterium. Sure, all those doctrines the Apostles gave...hmm, let's look at just a few.
Surely, the Apostles gave the doctrine that Mary must also be a mediator and redemptrix.
Surely, the Apostles gave the doctrine that Mary was assumed.
Surely, the Apostles included in their "deposit of faith" that Mary should be crowed "queen of heaven" and worthy of the worship of prayer as is God.
Surely......
Sola Scriptura, otoh, is taught throughout the Bible. Jesus and the Apostles specifically taught it. Those other doctrines above can be found no where in Apostolic teaching; and, in fact, actually violate Scripture.
quote:
The Church is what judged and authorized Scripture to be included or not in the New Testament, thereby authorizing it (in fact - canonizing it). LOL...with such delusional self-aggrandisement, no wonder RC figures it has the right to ignore Scripture everytime they institute another doctrine which violates the Word of God.
quote:
I don't see anything wrong or to be discouraged about this practice... You don't; but you should since it violates almost every page of Scripture wherein we find it is ONLY God who is due the worship of prayer. But, hey it's just that rascally Bible...always disagreeing with our man-made imaginings.
quote:
So - grace is bestowed to Muslims, who clearly reject Jesus...? That should agree abundantly with RC since they worship the same God as Islam. Never mind all this grace and faith business since according to RC even belief in Jesus Christ is no longer necessary for salvation.
No matter if a Muslim considers Jesus Christ simply a lesser prophet than Mohammed - he too is saved by the blood of this "lesser prophet". And this from a church who says it defends Scripture...whew..
quote:
However, why would we deny help that may be available to us to strengthen our walk and to fortify our faith? Pride? Arrogance? Why would we short-change ourselves? The only pride and arrogance seen is that which ignores the Book written by God in favor of the teachings of one's denomination no matter how those teachings violate the truth found in Scripture. That is truly short-changing yourself.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/4/2008 5:30:58 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3760
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
Other than to pagan gods, the only example of prayer in the Bible is to God.
"Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Priase His angels!!! Paganism in the bible! I suggest just a tad more attention be paid to the verses you offfer to support the worship of saints and Mary. It certainly does not say to "praise angels".
Is this typical of how the "magisterium" might decide its doctrines...by such careless rendering of Scripture?
At any rate, there's at least one place where "paganism" won't be found - the Bible - no matter how it is desperately sifted to find support for your doctrines.
quote:
quote:
There's no authentication possible so basically we're just looking at a superstitious practice.
So Kelman you don't believe in miracles as well? Not miracles with your....uh, relics.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/4/2008 7:41:11 AM
|
|
|
texastweet
Posts: 428
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
I suggest just a tad more attention be paid to the verses you offfer to support the worship of saints and Mary.
And you should read a few more replies before responding...see these: 3815 and 3820.
"So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet" (2 Kgs. 13:20-21). The woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak (Matt. 9:20-22) and the sick who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them (Acts 5:14-16). "And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them" (Acts 19:11-12).
Relics in the bible! 
Otis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/4/2008 10:49:30 AM
|
|
|
martyfran
Posts: 544
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Not miracles with your....uh, relics.
Acts 19:11-12
God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.
< Message edited by martyfran -- 6/4/2008 10:58:04 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/4/2008 11:01:31 AM
|
|
|
Asotos
Posts: 33
Joined: 5/31/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
"So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet" (2 Kgs. 13:20-21). The woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak (Matt. 9:20-22) and the sick who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them (Acts 5:14-16). "And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them" (Acts 19:11-12).
Relics in the bible!
The passages are correct however you again isolate the exemption to make a rule as I have pointed earlier.
Did the Jews collected the bones of Prophet Elisha put them in a golden container and everyone who wanted to be healed visiting them praying to the Prophet to heal him. The answer is NO.
The same way , did acts say or Paul mentions ever that Chrisitans kept his
handkerchiefs and incense them etc etc.. again NO They used them when Gods Grace used them and after that they where redundant as any material item.
I wouldn't have say a word against Praying to Saints or anything else, if Luke or Paul have mentions that the Bones of the First Martyr Stephan have been kept and venerated but of course they didn't do that. All those are traditions added afterwards the same way the Jewish priests added their own however Christ condemns them for that, cause they forgot the Tradition of God.
No one will deny that God can uses materials to pure his grace to humans, and the old testament is full of such material images but in Christ we worship in the Spirit, we don't need temples nor priests and intermediates, no incense nor sacrifices nothing. The Sacrifice has been done once by our ArchPriest and only Priest Jesus.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 6/4/2008 1:36:38 PM
|
|
|
texastweet
Posts: 428
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
The passages are correct however you again isolate the exemption to make a rule as I have pointed earlier.
Did the Jews collected the bones of Prophet Elisha put them in a golden container and everyone who wanted to be healed visiting them praying to the Prophet to heal him. The answer is NO.
The same way , did acts say or Paul mentions ever that Chrisitans kept his
handkerchiefs and incense them etc etc.. again NO They used them when Gods Grace used them and after that they where redundant as any material item.
Asotos,
How do I isolate? They are biblical examples that you wish away by just assuming the people didn't keep the materials. Please then show me the passage that actually prohibits any of these practices.
I find little use for looking back to "Jewish" practices when there are 2000 yrs of Christian practices and teaching available for all see and hopefully learn from.
quote:
All those are traditions added afterwards the same way the Jewish priests | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
