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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/21/2008 2:16:47 PM
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Ps103
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Is it my imagination, or would some of this discussion not be more at home in the Calvinism thread?
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/22/2008 5:46:36 AM
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Doghouse
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Its your imagination. I am trying to lead the horse to water - let's see how thirsty he is...
quote:
No amount of intellect, art, music or rational thought will amount to understanding or lead man to understanding God… Bringing the ship back around to the course heading...
The examples of the Saints pointed out to us by the Church can assist in the evangelization of the values, actions and choices that are reflective of the faith instructed by the Church, and professed by her followers, and in so doing, are worthy of respect and honor by all Christians. Many current Christians have been led to faith and led to God by the real-life examples of present-day or contemporary Saints.
While one may sit down and attempt sole-discernment with a copy of the KJV, for some - the examples of the Saints can be valuable in providing a context or a backdrop for the comprehension of the disciplines of faith. From this background, a personal relationship with God may develop as the potential faithful can perhaps see facets or examples of the actions of the Saints within their own situations, choices and dilemmas.
For some, this validates the message of Scripture and provides the objectivity required by some, which then warrants further investigation and scrutiny of faith.
I believe this IS a means by which people can be brought to Christianty by God. We are not brought to God by some magical pixie dust that is randomly sprinkled over some of us, but by much more practical means and circumstances. Faith is not some rhetorical, conceptual abstraction, but a real, effective, day-to-day mechanism and backdrop against which to analyze options, make choices and engage action.
The Saints show us examples of excellent analysis, excellent choosing, and excellent action reflecting those beliefs and values that we profess as Christians.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 5/22/2008 5:54:38 AM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/22/2008 2:16:02 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
I believe this IS a means by which people can be brought to Christianty by God. We are not brought to God by some magical pixie dust that is randomly sprinkled over some of us, but by much more practical means and circumstances. Faith is not some rhetorical, conceptual abstraction, but a real, effective, day-to-day mechanism and backdrop against which to analyze options, make choices and engage action.
The Saints show us examples of excellent analysis, excellent choosing, and excellent action reflecting those beliefs and values that we profess as Christians.
However the means it's more like magical pixie dust than you wish to believe... Man doesn't reason out salvation, he is made alive by God... Its a miracle... In the temporal sure we analyze options, make choices and engage actions, but that doesn't change the fact that our salvation is a miracle when viewed in the eternal sense...
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/23/2008 7:16:23 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Man doesn't reason out salvation, he is made alive by God I don't see these as being mutually exclusive. The inspiration given a person by God to begin to turn towards faith could be as simple as a non-Christian "accidentally" befriending a Christian. There's your miracle.
I don't believe God "zaps" us with faith. I believe that the instruction of faith is out there (Bibles are widely published, and the Gideons seem to manage to stick a KJV somewhere in just about every hotel room I've ever been in...), but people need to be inspired to take that first peek. Some then find it to be a natural fit - the way that God created them. Faith requires of us examination, study, scrutiny, query - we just don't get a "Spock mind-meld" from God to bring us into relationship with Him.
A relationship with God is just like every other relationship we have - its a two-way street and requires effort and input from us. We get out of it what we are willing to put into it.
Catholics recognize and honor the right-relationship of the Saints with God, and we seek the example of these folks to guide us in how we are to maintain and support our personal relationship with God.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/23/2008 9:53:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
I don't see these as being mutually exclusive. The inspiration given a person by God to begin to turn towards faith could be as simple as a non-Christian "accidentally" befriending a Christian. There's your miracle.
However and whatever God uses to make a person alive doesn't remove the fact that man doesn't reason himself to some point of salvation, or even near it... God does it, and whatever He uses it's doesn't really matter...
quote:
I don't believe God "zaps" us with faith. I believe that the instruction of faith is out there (Bibles are widely published, and the Gideons seem to manage to stick a KJV somewhere in just about every hotel room I've ever been in...), but people need to be inspired to take that first peek. Some then find it to be a natural fit - the way that God created them. Faith requires of us examination, study, scrutiny, query - we just don't get a "Spock mind-meld" from God to bring us into relationship with Him.
Eternally we are zapped, temporally we study... We do all things because of what God did and does...
quote:
A relationship with God is just like every other relationship we have - its a two-way street and requires effort and input from us. We get out of it what we are willing to put into it.
No... God grants us eternal life in spiite of oursleves... There is no relationship like the one we have with God... Any comparrison will full so short...
quote:
Catholics recognize and honor the right-relationship of the Saints with God, and we seek the example of these folks to guide us in how we are to maintain and support our personal relationship with God.
That's fine... Of course the bottom line in regards to the examples is the word of God, in other words the actions of the Saints must be aligned with the Word. So in the end we are following not really the example of Saints but of God's word. As well, like anyone else Saint or not, they are in theory guided by the Holy Spirit... God is the reason, not man...
John
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/26/2008 4:30:58 AM
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kelman
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quote:
That's fine... Of course the bottom line in regards to the examples is the word of God, in other words the actions of the Saints must be aligned with the Word. So in the end we are following not really the example of Saints but of God's word. As well, like anyone else Saint or not, they are in theory guided by the Holy Spirit... God is the reason, not man...
Besides, we can never know if what is written concerning "saints" is actually true. Much is untrue, simply fantasy and hyperbole often with a hefty dash of superstition thrown in to make it exciting.
If we want true accounts of actual saints, we will find them in the only place where absolute truth can be found - the Bible. Unfortunately, many prefer to ignore these examples of true relationships with God - given to us by God. Preferring instead to devour books written by man - to glorify man.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/27/2008 3:29:01 PM
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JesKlu
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ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
That's fine... Of course the bottom line in regards to the examples is the word of God, in other words the actions of the Saints must be aligned with the Word. So in the end we are following not really the example of Saints but of God's word. As well, like anyone else Saint or not, they are in theory guided by the Holy Spirit... God is the reason, not man...
quote:
Besides, we can never know if what is written concerning "saints" is actually true. Much is untrue, simply fantasy and hyperbole often with a hefty dash of superstition thrown in to make it exciting.
I agree. There are some accounts of "saints" in the Roman Catholic Church that were taken off the Roman Calendar. For example, Saint Christopher. Basically, he is a made up fairytale. Even the Catholics admit to that.
But what about the Early Church Fathers? I believe they were truly saints, and they didn't do any of the Mary or Saint worship either. That all came in around 500-1000 A.D. In the Dark Ages. And Mary and Saint devotion/worship became REALLY popular around the High Middle Ages, which would be starting at 1000 A.D.
quote:
If we want true accounts of actual saints, we will find them in the only place where absolute truth can be found - the Bible. Unfortunately, many prefer to ignore these examples of true relationships with God - given to us by God. Preferring instead to devour books written by man - to glorify man.
Like I also said, the Early Church Fathers seem to me, to be saints. But after the era of the Early Church Fathers, things started to go sour.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 5/27/2008 3:35:32 PM >
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/27/2008 7:56:21 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Besides, we can never know if what is written concerning "saints" is actually true. Much is untrue, simply fantasy and hyperbole often with a hefty dash of superstition thrown in to make it exciting.
Some things about the saints may be empirically unverifiable, although the Catholic doesn't teach that everything written about the saints is on the same level as Scripture. That doesn't take away from those things that we can empirically verify. For example, I don't think anyone disputes that Saint Francis walked away from significant wealth to serve the poor. Now, given that nobody disputes this fact, the question is: Is such a radical commitment to the teaching of the gospel something that we can learn from? I think the answer is yes.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/27/2008 8:37:51 PM
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texastweet
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quote:
There are some accounts of "saints" in the Roman Catholic Church that were taken off the Roman Calendar. For example, Saint Christopher. Basically, he is a made up fairytale. Even the Catholics admit to that.
Jessica,
The Church recognizes that cold hard facts are sometimes hard to come by and very little is known about St Chris. But he is still listed on local calendars if a particular bishop agrees. These are people born in certain locations and towns were proud of their saints even though very early in history, cd's and camera's were hard to come by. Saints are in general, very much a "grass roots" effort by the people that actually new them. To say he is just a made up fairytale isn't fair as well since you can't say for sure he didn't exist.
quote:
But what about the Early Church Fathers? I believe they were truly saints, and they didn't do any of the Mary or Saint worship either.
We still don't do any of that saint worship as well, but in any case prior to 500 there are numerous examples of honoring Mary and the Saints.
"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides."
Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin,71:216(ante AD 373),in MCF,106
"Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to the remedy of fasting and sleeping on the ground."
Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 24:11(A.D. 379),in MCF,167
This took me all of 5 minutes seaching on the web.
Otis
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/28/2008 5:47:38 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
But what about the Early Church Fathers? I believe they were truly saints, and they didn't do any of the Mary or Saint worship either. That all came in around 500-1000 A.D. In the Dark Ages. And Mary and Saint devotion/worship became REALLY popular around the High Middle Ages, which would be starting at 1000 A.D.
My opinion, Jessica, for what it is worth, and as much merit and authority it has (practically zero, I am thinking...) is that you are truly off your rocker.
I just got through reading your post in Matt's LCMS thread that he started, and I am very disappointed. I felt it inappropriate to hi-jack Matt's thread to respond to your post in that thread, but felt it fair game to confront you here in this one.
You appear to have some sort of personal agenda and vendetta against the Roman Catholic Church, to the extent that you feel the need to compromise the quality and the integrity of the information you post about her. Its too bad. Many would not have to resort to such tactics, but could sway and convince by pointing out what is true, rather than by inventing falsehoods.
If you disagree with what the Church actually teaches, then turn away from her and reject her, as you have done. But there is no need, in addition to rejecting her, to also libel her on these forums.
It serves no purpose and accomplishes no result. It only demonstrates a variant of Christianity that believes that falsehoods as a means are justified by the ends of bringing people to that version of faith. I doubt many here would agree with the notion that Scripture instructs us to be less than forthright about Christian faith in order to bring souls to it.
If you believe that you were really worshipping Mary and the other Saints, and if you actually believe that the path of salvation lay through Mary, and not Jesus, then you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble, and simply transferred to another Parish, and reported your Parish pastor to the Bishop, who would have dealt with these false teachings that obviously occur within your local Parish. The heretic leading your Parish would have been replaced with better pastoral leadership, if it is indeed the case that what you "learned" and were "instructed" about the Roman Catholic faith came from this local pastor.
As it is - I've got to call a lie a lie.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 5/28/2008 7:17:23 AM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/28/2008 11:25:55 AM
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JesKlu
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Hello Doghouse!
I do not believe my parish had bad leadership. Think about the Rosary for a minute, which many Catholics pray. The Salve Regina, which is prayed at the very end of the rosary, is really worship. You cannot deny the fact. And, no, venerating Mary and Saints did not come until the dark ages. The Early Church Fathers did not advocate such a practice.They may have mentioned the saints in their prayers, but that is the farthest it went. It did not turn into worship like we are seeing today.
Salve Regina
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,
our life, our sweetness and our hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;
to thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us;
and after this our exile,
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hail_Holy_Queen
Jesus is our life, our sweetness, and our hope. NOT Mary!
This prayer is prayed every time the rosary is prayed. That is Mary worship to the fullest. You guys think that because she is in heaven she can hear your prayers. But she is not Omnipresent, she is not divine, so all these prayers, are prayers prayed in thin air. Mary can't hear your prayers, only God can, and God is saddened when a person turns to someone or something else besides Him.
But it is obvious that Roman Catholics, and even the Orthodox, give divine attributes to her. And pretty much the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox transfer Christ's atrributes, (which only belong to Him) to Mary. And that is why they can make the excuse to pray to her, and invoke her. The Salve Regia is a prime example.
And I'm not trying to reject the Roman Catholic Church totally. What I do reject is the stuff that came later, such as Mary and Saint devotion, and indulgences etc.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 5/28/2008 11:34:10 AM >
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/28/2008 12:14:08 PM
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neverisenough
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The rosary is made up of 10 Hail Mary's and 5 Our Father's right? I thought the Hail Mary was taken out of the New Testament "Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with the" - is from Elizabeth greeting to Mary when Mary went to visit her for example. I am not sure how thinking about things in the bible is bad. The Our Father is a pretty common prayer, not sure what the problem is with it. Also doesn't the person praying the rosary focus on an event in Jesus life during each set of 10 Hail Mary's???? Not sure what wrong with that either.
God is sad when we turn to his children for help? Does this include Dr's, pastors, friends, spouses, the list could go on and on. I wonder sometimes if asking someone for advice and prayers is in itself a prayer, so are we praying to our friends when we ask them to pray for us.
I am not sure how I feel about this type of prayer for myself. But the Catholics who have posted seam pretty positive that they understand what worship is and were Gods place is, and that for them this prayer is in line with that. Isn't that whats important?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/28/2008 12:26:14 PM
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Zhi
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One move and 3 trips to the hospital later (hubby will be fine, fortunately) I have internet back.
I used to watch my great aunt pray the rosary... I could never figure out why there were 10 mentions of Mary to every 1 mention of God.
I've also always wondered about the consecration to Mary. The one that goes "My Queen! my Mother! I give you all of myself, and, to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self. Therefore, O loving Mother, as I am your own, keep me, defend me, as your property and possession." Why would you consecrate yourself to Mary? Aren't we to be consecrated to God?
That seems a little over the top for someone you merely esteem highly.
For that matter, I even found an RCC prayer consecrating children to Joseph.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/28/2008 2:31:24 PM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Isn't that whats important? No, I think what's important is seeing a tabby kitten, and calling it lion, because it is a striped feline...
Apparently, I don't know when I am worshipping something or not, and require others to tell me when I am...
If you believe that any monotheistic religion teaches you to worship other humans, then you are in error. That should be plain enough.
As far as the language of the prayers go - let's examine, shall we?
quote:
our life, our sweetness and our hope. A Catholic will recognize these as appeals to model and example. Mary is our model for our lives, our sweetness (compassion), and our hope. It is in her faith that the model of faith may be found - an example for us to reflect on. Noting that many would attempt to make this something its not, I don't see how you do in this case, given the usage of the language here.
quote:
Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; Being that Mary was Jesus's mother, we kind of assume here that she has His ear when it comes to requests on our behalf. By praying with us and for us, her special relationship with Christ (I was not His mother, and you were not His mother) is what makes her "advocate" for us (look up the Latin roots of this word if there is any confusion). If Mary is merciful (to other humans), we hope that we she will take up our causes as well in her prayers, which we believe are effective and generate results.
quote:
and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary. The example of Mary and her prayers for us may indeed strengthen and inspire us into a fuller and deeper relationship with Jesus, by more closely mimicking His example and more fully seeking, with greater strength and discipline, His way over our own. We hope that the result of this perseverance is that we get to see Him again, as this is our hope and our desire for ourselves.
quote:
But it is obvious that Roman Catholics, and even the Orthodox, give divine attributes to her. If it is obvious to you, it is only because you are defining the terms here. Why don't you just ask me if I worship Mary or are allowed to do so by my Church? And take my answer as the Gospel truth in this matter. I am a trained Catechist - this is the authority by which I can look at the statement "Catholics worship Saints" and say "incorrect".
By what authority do you look at what we do, and claim otherwise? Personal opinion?
By the way, what does the word "salve" mean?
Tell me the Biblical story about Jesus being "sweet". We know that He was (we're certain of it), but quote me the chapter and verse where this is demonstrated to us by a Gospel writer.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/28/2008 4:30:23 PM
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JesKlu
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Hello Doghouse!
quote:
Being that Mary was Jesus's mother, we kind of assume here that she has His ear when it comes to requests on our behalf. By praying with us and for us, her special relationship with Christ (I was not His mother, and you were not His mother) is what makes her "advocate" for us (look up the Latin roots of this word if there is any confusion). If Mary is merciful (to other humans), we hope that we she will take up our causes as well in her prayers, which we believe are effective and generate results.
Ok Doghouse. You are not the only Catholic praying to Mary. Let's say there are roughly 30,000,000 requests given to her every single day. How can she hear all those prayers if you do not claim for her to be Omnipresent? For you to be Omnipresent, must you then be Divine? So then, in short, Catholics and Orthodox are claiming she's Divine just by their actions.
It's pretty simple logic.
I used to do this same thing, and even argue for it! I used to condemn all Protestants to hell because they do not go through Mary. I was the real thing. Then one day God stopped all that madness by proving to me I was the one that was wrong.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/28/2008 4:41:41 PM
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JesKlu
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Hello Texastweet!
I googled, and googled and googled when it came to the Early Church Fathers and Mary. They seemed to hold her in high esteem, but I was not convinced that there was worship of Mary until the Bishop of Rome claimed to be Universal Bishop around the 6th century. That is when most of the Marian prayers, as we know them today, to have started; but even then devotion to the Saints and Mary wasn't popular yet. I even have a book, it is called the Benedictine Handbook, written by all Monks and Nuns, and that book even states that POPULAR devotion to Mary and the Saints started around the 11th and 12th centuries, and it is a book for Catholics written by Catholics. So it seems that I have legitamate reasons for saying that in the first 5 centuries of Christianity, it was all absent of the Mary and Saint worship.
When I looked at prayers by Early Churh Fathers mentioning Mary, it didn't seem to me what they were doing is what Catholics are doing today. They just seemed to mention Mary in their prayers, they didn't ask her for petitions or whatever. They just praised God that Mary was obedient to Him, and for this reason was there ever any honor given to her. But, no, they didn't do what Roman Catholics do today.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/28/2008 5:19:43 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
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Hi Jessica,
Your thinking of heaven like a help desk, where one sits on hold until their call is answered listening to bad music. Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world." Albert Einstein describes the physical universe in 4 dimensions, length, width, depth and time. Time as we understand it and time as it will be in heaven will not be the same at least that's what Jesus said. Angels know what is going on in different parts of the world at the same time are they omnipresent too?
To say that Mary can hear prayers because time as we know it is not as it is in heaven, doesn't make it necessary for Mary to be Omnipresent and therefor not divine.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/28/2008 5:59:57 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
I used to condemn all Protestants to hell because they do not go through Mary. I was the real thing. Then one day God stopped all that madness by proving to me I was the one that was wrong. It's too bad your Parish Pastor could not stop the madness for you, because condemning anyone to hell (assuming the state of anyone's soul), and relying on Mary to "save" you are both against the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.
Before anyone jumps on "anathema" (which means "separated") - maybe the conversation drifts the Salvation thread.
Its interesting that you felt you had to leave to get away from these practices, when you were the only one practicing them...
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 5/28/2008 6:06:47 PM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/28/2008 6:31:44 PM
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schupfNoodle
Posts: 95
Joined: 7/27/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
I've also always wondered about the consecration to Mary. The one that goes "My Queen! my Mother! I give you all of myself, and, to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self. Therefore, O loving Mother, as I am your own, keep me, defend me, as your property and possession." Why would you consecrate yourself to Mary? Aren't we to be consecrated to God?
That seems a little over the top for someone you merely esteem highly.
Esteem highly? Looks like worship devotedly. Oh my Queen defend me?
I am your property and possession?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Why would you consecrate yourself to Mary? Aren't we to be consecrated to God?
This is consecration to a godess. Definitely idolatry. Contrary to the bible. But will people admit it?
The bible has this, not Mary, the Queen of Heaven.
Deuteronomy 6:5
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
If you give your all to God, there won't be any left for Mary.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/28/2008 6:45:56 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 551
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
Hi Jessica,
Your thinking of heaven like a help desk, where one sits on hold until their call is answered listening to bad music. Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world." Albert Einstein describes the physical universe in 4 dimensions, length, width, depth and time. Time as we understand it and time as it will be in heaven will not be the same at least that's what Jesus said. Angels know what is going on in different parts of the world at the same time are they omnipresent too?
To say that Mary can hear prayers because time as we know it is not as it is in heaven, doesn't make it necessary for Mary to be Omnipresent and therefor not divine.
Pax,
Mary
Angels are told to watch over one person. We have guardian angels. They are not Omnipresent, and yes they cannot answer prayers. Mary, same thing. To claim that she can hear and answer millions of prayers at a time is to say she is Omnipresent, present everywhere. Catholics may say she isn't, but by their actions they are saying otherwise.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/28/2008 6:55:19 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 551
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
I used to condemn all Protestants to hell because they do not go through Mary. I was the real thing. Then one day God stopped all that madness by proving to me I was the one that was wrong. It's too bad your Parish Pastor could not stop the madness for you, because condemning anyone to hell (assuming the state of anyone's soul), and relying on Mary to "save" you are both against the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.
Before anyone jumps on "anathema" (which means "separated") - maybe the conversation drifts the Salvation thread.
Its interesting that you felt you had to leave to get away from these practices, when you were the only one practicing them...
My parish was praised by the archdiocese. My parish also got a reward from Pope John Paul II. So it doesn't seem my parish was bad. They just a did a lot of Marian devotions, probably because of the huge Polish population, and the Polish worship Mary. In Poland, there are parades which parade Mary's statues. Same in Mexico.
It is the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church altogether that is off course. By calling Mary Co-Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix is bad. Co-Mediator with Christ and Co-Redeemer with Christ, seems pretty bad. And those two things I believe are mentioned in the Catechism.
The Catholic Church worships Mary, period. There's no getting around that. Ever since 500 A.D., invoking Mary has become the norm. Invocation was mentioned first by Gregory, but other Church Fathers after him did not mention invocation and was not a practice in the Church until the Dark Ages. Hence why the word, Dark, is in there. That is also the time when the Bishop of Rome claimed Universal Headship.
So everything what my Church teaches against is the stuff that arrived in the Catholic Church around 500-1000 A.D.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 5/28/2008 8:04:19 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
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Jessica,
I hope you're well. And, FYI, I ditto everything Doghouse has said.
quote:
So it doesn't seem my parish was bad. They just a did a lot of Marian devotions, probably because of the huge Polish population, and the Polish worship Mary.
Whoa! I'm Polish, my entire family is Polish, my ancestors were Polish, and I can guarantee you beyond a shadow of a doubt that NONE of us EVER "worship[ped] Mary." That, my dear, was a rather unfounded, bold, and false accusation. Don't fret, I forgive you.
quote:
By calling Mary Co-Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix is bad. Co-Mediator with Christ and Co-Redeemer with Christ, seems pretty bad. And those two things I believe are mentioned in the Catechism.
Please cite your source. I'd be interested in reviewing it, and I'm pretty sure Doghouse would be, too.
Jessica, your "issues" with the Catholic Church stem from the redefinition of the doctrine of the "communion of saints" that came a result of the "reformation." The Church was no longer the Body of Christ, it was every man/woman/child with a bible and Jesus. That is not what Our Lord intended for His Church. Your angst is misplaced, IMHO.
Pax Christi,
gatolover
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I am sure you and all the Catholics who post on this board understand what worship is and what Gods place in that is. I wasn't questioning your understanding of worship or God. I was trying to show that whats important is that a Christian understands how everything they do fits into their overall faith. From the posts of the Catholics here they all seam to see prayers to the saints as fitting into their overall faith. 
I don't think (at least the people here) worship the saints and the best I can tell that's not what the Catholic faith teaches. I don't know what I personally think about it for me, but my point was that talking and going to others for advice/prayers, is NOT putting them higher then God.