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RE: Worship Statues? - 8/23/2009 10:53:33 PM
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martyfran
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If these people were out to worship the statue, making the sign of the cross would seem to be a particularly bad way to do it. It would be like walking up to a statue of Mary and saying "Praise be Jesus Christ". That wouldn't be a very good way of worshiping the statue either.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 10/13/2009 12:03:17 PM
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seekeratthesea
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Nonsense........I was a part of the catholic church for many years. Although I disagree with much of their theology, the notion that they worship anything but God has always been garbage. I never even heard of worshiping statues, saints, Mary etc until after leaving RC. And then it was only anti catholics telling me this stuff and in truth, most anti catholics are just ex catholics with a chip on their shoulder.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 10/13/2009 12:31:46 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
I'm not speculating on anything. I just happen to think it's ridiculous to bow in front of a piece of plaster and gesture, no matter who is portrayed.
The Jews would bow before and give the summit of reverence to the Ark of the Covenant, which had statues of two angels on it. It was so holy that one couldn't even be in the presence of it but once each year, and only the High Priest.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 10/14/2009 4:25:23 AM
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rawr.ben
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:
I'm not speculating on anything. I just happen to think it's ridiculous to bow in front of a piece of plaster and gesture, no matter who is portrayed.
The Jews would bow before and give the summit of reverence to the Ark of the Covenant, which had statues of two angels on it. It was so holy that one couldn't even be in the presence of it but once each year, and only the High Priest.
Uh. Because it was behind the veil where God's presence was? It wasn't the box that was so Holy, it was Adonai.
Oy vey.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 10/14/2009 4:27:45 AM
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rawr.ben
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quote:
ORIGINAL: seekeratthesea
I never even heard of worshiping statues, saints, Mary etc
Mary is perpetually a virgin.
Mary was sinless.
Mary was conceived without the stain of sin.
Mary was assumed into heaven.
Mary now sits at Jesus' right hand and aids in Salvation.
Mary listens and answers our prayers.
Mary heals.
Mary has been lifted up more than any other person on the face of the earth by the RC.
THAT, my friend, is the definition of worship.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 10/14/2009 7:41:42 AM
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Catholicandloveit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
Mary has been lifted up more than any other person on the face of the earth by the RC.
Us silly Catholics thinking that its important to show Mary - the mother of our Lord - some respect.
It is not worship, not of her or of a statue of her.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 10/14/2009 2:36:18 PM
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rawr.ben
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Respect? You've gone way beyond respect, friend. In my little home town alone, there are at least 2 churches and a school named after her. How many are named after God? Nadda.
People take a mecca around the world just so they can go be healed by a statue of her. It's not my slant on things. I listen to Catholic talk radio. These are your RCC members words. They ask HER to heal them. They thank HER for answered prayers and their loved ones salvation. I've listened to it.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 10/14/2009 3:10:07 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
Mary has been lifted up more than any other person on the face of the earth by the RC.
THAT, my friend, is the definition of worship.
False. Catholics lift nobody up more than Jesus Christ, and neither does Mary, His Throne, His Mercy Seat, the one who exalts Jesus more than any other Creature. For this reason we look to Her for an example.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/15/2009 7:11:45 PM >
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RE: Worship Statues? - 10/14/2009 3:22:24 PM
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Catholicandloveit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
Respect? You've gone way beyond respect, friend. In my little home town alone, there are at least 2 churches and a school named after her. How many are named after God? Nadda.
People take a mecca around the world just so they can go be healed by a statue of her. It's not my slant on things. I listen to Catholic talk radio. These are your RCC members words. They ask HER to heal them. They thank HER for answered prayers and their loved ones salvation. I've listened to it.
Ben maybe some do go beyond respect, but this isn't a problem of Mary or in the Catholic Church this is a problem in the individual believer. How many Christians worship Money, Alcohol, Porn, Chocolate Cake, and the list can go on of things people put above God. What individual Christians do is not always equal to what a faith teaches, why - well mostly because its HARD to do what is right, lets not judge a faith on an individual but its teachings. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary is not to be worshiped, but this is another thread and the mods don't like it when the statue thread turns into the Mary thread and we've both been here long enough to know that so back to the issue -
Statues
I know I posted this before (actually I think in the Mary thread  ) - this may give you a better understanding of how Catholics view statues.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp
Mary
edited - grammar 
< Message edited by Catholicandloveit -- 10/14/2009 6:06:00 PM >
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Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 10/17/2009 7:12:24 AM
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patricius79
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quote:
I know I posted this before (actually I think in the Mary thread ) - this may give you a better understanding of how Catholics view statues.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp
Mary, that's a very good article. Thank you. And I think it's from a very good group of people.
here is an excerpt:
"People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).
David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.
Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim." "
For the rest of this article [Catholic Answers. "Do Catholics Worship Statues". San Diego, 2004]:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp
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RE: Worship Statues? - 10/18/2009 2:04:20 PM
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seekeratthesea
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The catholic church I went to as a kid had a huge number of statues, more (even from a catholic perspective) than I think necessary or even desirable. From what I've read though, these statues were intended for the benefit of those who could not read, to help remember by associating the statues with the Biblical accounts, which is sensible enough.
Why is carries into the modern era is anyone's guess but I would think it's just become part of catholic culture over the centuries. And to be fair, I had to drive a client of mine to a catholic church for confession. I went into the church out of curiosity and saw almost zero statues, so it may have become a waning thing.
Most people know that catholics OBVIOUSLY don't worship statues.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 10/18/2009 2:23:55 PM
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seekeratthesea
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That's YOUR definition, written up to fit your agenda. There is a REAL definition which I'm sure you know about which doesn't even mention Mary.
Bottom line is that catholics know that worship is only for God and that Mary is not God. Therefore they wouldn't, and don't worship her. I think the word they use is "veneration" which is obviously more than they do for other human beings but less than they do for God. I still think they carry it too far but if your going to be serious about this issue, you need to have so perspective, some common sense, and you need to stay in the real world.
If catholics thought Mary deserved worship, they would perceive her as a goddess and if that were the case they wouldn't deny worshiping her anymore than you or I would deny worshiping God.
If there were genuine persecution of catholics for worshiping Mary, then some might deny it but that's not the case here, so IF they were worshiping Mary, they are left with no reason to deny her. If anything, denial of Mary would incur the wrath of their (supposed) goddess so in truth, they have more reason to LOUDLY PROCLAIM their worship than to deny it.
The secondary question here is, Which is worse, to go overboard with Mary as I think catholics do by making too much of her? Or to go too far in the opposite direction, as I think non catholic churches do by making too little of her.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 10/18/2009 5:07:26 PM
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patricius79
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Seekeratthesea wrote:
quote:
If catholics thought Mary deserved worship, they would perceive her as a goddess and if that were the case they wouldn't deny worshiping her anymore than you or I would deny worshiping God.
If there were genuine persecution of catholics for worshiping Mary, then some might deny it but that's not the case here, so IF they were worshiping Mary, they are left with no reason to deny her. If anything, denial of Mary would incur the wrath of their (supposed) goddess so in truth, they have more reason to LOUDLY PROCLAIM their worship than to deny it.
I must say, it's nice hear an argument for the Catholic position from someone who doesn't think of themselves as Catholic. I think I agree with you, too--that is, with your argument.
I think that statues have the added attraction of all the arts, which children love. As Scripture says, "unless you turn and become like little children, you will not enter the Kingdom of God."
"Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim." "
For the rest of this article [Catholic Answers. "Do Catholics Worship Statues". San Diego, 2004]:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/18/2009 5:13:54 PM >
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RE: Worship Statues? - 11/2/2009 12:43:42 PM
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patricius79
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RUTHIE WROTE:
quote:
I don't think that Catholics are any more ridiculous than anyone else. Of course, I think most people are a bit ridiculous.
Amen to that. And those who can accept that the truth always seems ridiculous...they are the free ones.
_________________________________________________________
As Scripture says,
"He is the Icon of the Invisible God, the Firstborn of creation."
Another charge sometimes made by Protestants is that the Catholic Church "hides" the second commandment. This is because in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as "You shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:3), and the second is listed as "You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain." (Ex. 20:7). From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues. But this is false. Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants.
For more of this article: “Catholic Answers. “Do Catholics Worship Statues?”
Catholics believe that paintings of Christ are more than just what went into their composition. They believe that the icons truly signify Christ, as the Scripture do by using ink and paper.. This was ruled on and defined by the Second Council of Nicaea and the Fourth Council of Constantinople. Note that II Nicaea indicates that anyone who obstinately rejects the Word of God regarding Icons—and does so until death--condemns themselves. It also affirms the Biblical teaching about the unity of the Written and Oral Tradition, which are the Word of God:
Here is II Nicaea:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9405fea1sb.asp
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 11/2/2009 12:55:13 PM >
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/14/2010 8:16:29 AM
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patricius79
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The accusations about "statue worship" are clearly a pyschic accusation about motives, since the Jews also worshipped before statues--the statues of the Cherubim (Ex 25), upon the symbol of Mary, the Ark (Rev 11:19-12:5) --but were not worshipping them or Mary, but the God withing them (Eph 3:19)
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 1/14/2010 9:12:29 PM >
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/24/2010 6:08:40 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: seekeratthesea
Nonsense........I was a part of the catholic church for many years. Although I disagree with much of their theology, the notion that they worship anything but God has always been garbage. I never even heard of worshiping statues, saints, Mary etc until after leaving RC. And then it was only anti catholics telling me this stuff and in truth, most anti catholics are just ex catholics with a chip on their shoulder. I agree, it is a complete misunderstanding of their use. Whether it is right or wrong, at this point is irrelevant, because the objection is that they should not be worshiped. But the facts are that they are not worshiping them. They are being accused of something they are not doing.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/24/2010 6:20:15 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.benquote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79quote:
I'm not speculating on anything. I just happen to think it's ridiculous to bow in front of a piece of plaster and gesture, no matter who is portrayed. The Jews would bow before and give the summit of reverence to the Ark of the Covenant, which had statues of two angels on it. It was so holy that one couldn't even be in the presence of it but once each year, and only the High Priest. Uh. Because it was behind the veil where God's presence was? It wasn't the box that was so Holy, it was Adonai. So if an icon of Our Lord Jesus Christ represents God's presence behind it, you would not have an objection? In other words, it is not the icon that is the object of worship, but what it is represented behind it that you would be okay with?
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/24/2010 9:32:01 PM
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Thursday_GKC
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This thread presents a false premise. No Catholic or Eastern Orthodox that I know worships statues and if they do they are going against not only the clear condemnations of the Bible but also the teachings of their Church.
Someone can argue whether or not the use of statues is appropriate/biblical etc., but that should be the argument not whether the worship of statues is Biblical because for one it is not and two it is not the CC or EO position.
God bless
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Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashion. -GK Chesterton
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/24/2010 9:49:30 PM
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walterquez
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Amen
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/25/2010 3:09:23 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Thursday_GKC
This thread presents a false premise. No Catholic or Eastern Orthodox that I know worships statues and if they do they are going against not only the clear condemnations of the Bible but also the teachings of their Church.
Someone can argue whether or not the use of statues is appropriate/biblical etc., but that should be the argument not whether the worship of statues is Biblical because for one it is not and two it is not the CC or EO position.
So the Eoc and RCC practice of kissing, bowing before, and praying to icons and statues is not worship of the same (Icons and or statues)?
Thanks
RC
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/25/2010 3:48:53 PM
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Thursday_GKC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Thursday_GKC
This thread presents a false premise. No Catholic or Eastern Orthodox that I know worships statues and if they do they are going against not only the clear condemnations of the Bible but also the teachings of their Church.
Someone can argue whether or not the use of statues is appropriate/biblical etc., but that should be the argument not whether the worship of statues is Biblical because for one it is not and two it is not the CC or EO position.
So the Eoc and RCC practice of kissing, bowing before, and praying to icons and statues is not worship of the same (Icons and or statues)?
Thanks
RC
Hello RC. I can't speak for the EO (I can't even speak for the CC since I don't consider myself CC anymore) but I have seen everything you have explained above (kissing, bowing etc) done to people by other people and no one confuses it for worship. I have never seen someone pray to a statue. Maybe before, by, or in front but I wouldn't see that as worship anymore than when I pray with a Bible in my hand. From my reading on it when I bled Catholicism is that the worship of anything out side the one true God is forbidden per the 1st commandment and the teachings of the CC.
I think there is a lot that can be discussed and argued in regards to Catholics and their use of statues, biblically and historically. I just think that the correct things should be argued. If Catholics are worshipping statues then that needs to stop both because not only are they Christian and it is forbidden for Christians but because their Church forbids it.
One thing that is important to remember is that statues in the CC (unsure of the EO) are considered sacramentals, they are there to help them. They are not mandatory. Someone is not anymore or any less of a Catholic because they choose to have them or not.
God bless you RC
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Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashion. -GK Chesterton
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/25/2010 5:36:49 PM
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Saved34
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I think Roman Catholics are being just a bit dishonest or maybe dishonest is too strong a word but it is a form of worship no matter how you slice it.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/25/2010 7:20:08 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
I think Roman Catholics are being just a bit dishonest or maybe dishonest is too strong a word but it is a form of worship no matter how you slice it. Why?
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