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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/6/2008 3:56:58 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Tertulian, Cyprian of Carthage, Cyril (of Jerusalem), Augustine - all believed in the offering of prayers for the dead for the post-humous refinement of souls. The EO Church accepts the effaciousness of prayers offered for the souls of the departed.
All the more reason to carefully sort the truth from the errors of the ECF. Thankfully, their writings never claimed to be Divinely inspired. Therefore, if we want to know the truth, we must go back to the Word of God. The Bible (apart from the Apocrypha which is uninspired) does not teach anything even closely resembling Purgatory. It is a purely Catholic idea, and even the EOC rejects this teaching.
It's interesting, Ezra, that it was Origen who was responsible for the doctrine of purgatory - his own private speculation. His various and sundry theories were anathematized at the fifth ecumenical council of Constantinople in the year 553 and he was declared a heretic.
Although, some credit Clement of Alexandria with being first, but, this is doubtful. He, among others, taught "universal salvation for all intelligent creatures". Gregory of Nyssa and Ambrose also taught universal salvation; but, for some reason, political no doubt, they remained in good standing.
Ambrose taught that the souls of the martyrs and saints went immediately into heaven, though, he remained uncertain about the "ordinary" saved individual.
An eclectic group with very eclectic beliefs. One thing's for sure, despite RC's favorite mantra "it was taught from the beginning by all", many in the early church would disagree with Rome's modern teachings.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/6/2008 10:42:54 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
Ezra and Doghouse I'm letting you guys know...starting tomorrow I will be practicing lent for 40 days
so for me I won't be posting on crosswalk during this time! I enjoy the disciplines of Lent. I try to remove what I feel gets between me and God. I hadn't thought about giving up this site, but its not a bad idea.
I try to restrict my diet and imagine not having the means to buy food. So - Lent is a long fast for me. We are way too fat and comfortable in the US; I try to take on a little discomfort for Lent. I donate the grocery money I save to charity.
May your Lent be a time of preparation that brings you closer to God...
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/6/2008 1:15:43 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/20/2005
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i grew up a catholic but when i was in my late teens i joined a protestant church. i have remained protestant since and have been a southern baptist for over 20 years or more.
of course as a catholic i accepted the teaching of purgatotry and when i joined a protestant church they tried to scrub me of all that was catholic. knowing my background here is what i find interesting when looking at the protestant view...
in many protestant churches particularly baptist churches 1 john 1:9 is understood to be written to believers.
1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
i dont think john is wrting this about believers but that is another thread. but many a time i have sat in a pew and heard a sermon spoken to believers where the preacher/pastor has said to believers that if we sin and confess our sins we are forgiven based on this passage.
if that is true, it makes me wonder what happens to the christian who sins and doesnt ask for forgiveness. this passage state that if i ask for forgiveness it will be granted, much like the idea of catholic confession, but even further than that it states that we will be cleansed from all unrighteousness.
so when that christian who didnt ask for forgiveness dies, they die in a state of unforgiveness and unrighteousness, if 1 john 1:9 applies to believers.
so unwittingly a baptist or protestant who applies this passage to believers at least acknowledges the idea that a christian can be in a state of unforgiveness and unrighteousness. from there the leap to the idea of purgatory is not that far.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/7/2008 9:03:47 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
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kelman,
I really am not very interested in pursuing an on-going debate with you during Lent, but since I happen to be here, I thought a couple of comments might be in order.
quote:
His bodily ascension did not take place until forty days after the Resurrection. Yet, we know for a fact, upon physical death His Spirit went to be with the Father - He declares so - "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit". And "commend" holds the meaning -1. to place beside or near or set before. 2. to deposit, to intrust, commit to one's charge
Again, I ask...what is this propensity of yours to separate our Lord Jesus Christ into parts; i.e., spirit and flesh? According to you, Christ's Body is superfluous? Why didn't the Father just make it all right with the "spirit" of Christ being crucified, buried, and resurrected? I see no refutation of my point that the hypostatic union remains true beyond Christ's Ascension to the Right Hand of the Father. My Lord most certainly committed Himself to the charge of the Father; therefore, your second dictionary definition applies.
quote:
To the paradise that Scripture explicitly teaches is heaven where God is. This can be readily seen by comparing scripture with scripture. Paradise is heaven where God is; and, where Jesus' spirit went - just as did the spirit of the thief.
Where? Lazarus was in "Paradise" and leaning on Abraham. Please forgive my ignorance and show me exactly where Scripture "explicitly teaches" what you say. Thanks.
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Christ said He(His spirit) was going to the Father(Luke 23:46).
Since when is Christ "His spirit" only? The Son of God is eternal, no doubt, but it appears to me you have some difficulty in understanding the hypostatic union in Christ.
quote:
Christ said the thief would be with Him in paradise(Luke 23:43).
Christ said the Father is in heaven(Mat 6:9; 16:17).
God is in paradise (Rev 2:7).
All very "logical," but missing the mark, IMHO.
quote:
Paul was caught up into the third heaven which is paradise (2Cor 12:2,4).
Leap alert! What does Paul's vision have to do with our Lord's Ascension to the Right Hand of the Father?
quote:
Christ declared as He died "It is finished". Therefore, all the penalty of sin was paid for by Christ.
Actually, there's a better explanation...the New Covenant Passover was "finished." Let me know if you're interested in discussing it and I'll try to visit as I can.
I'm beginning to believe we may never see eye-to-eye, kelman, but I wish you the Peace of Christ, nonetheless.
gatolover
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/7/2008 9:07:01 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
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Dear john_mark,
You are very insightful.
If I didn't have to wake early for work tomorrow, I'd love to talk more. As it is, I do and I can't. :) However, I'm glad you're here.
Hopefully, we shall meet again soon.
Pax et bonum,
gatolover
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/8/2008 5:16:53 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
Again, I ask...what is this propensity of yours to separate our Lord Jesus Christ into parts; i.e., spirit and flesh? Propensity? Just stating the obvious facts. Why do you have such a difficult time understanding that Christ's body was in the tomb while His Spirit was in heaven. After all, Scripture clearly states this fact.
quote:
According to you, Christ's Body is superfluous? Nope, never said that - never even thought it. But, apparently you think His Spirit is superfluous.
quote:
Why didn't the Father just make it all right with the "spirit" of Christ being crucified, buried, and resurrected? I have no idea what you could possibly mean by "make it all right".
quote:
I see no refutation of my point that the hypostatic union remains true beyond Christ's Ascension to the Right Hand of the Father. There is no violence done to the dual nature of Christ to assert what Scripture plainly states - that, upon His death, His body was laid in the tomb while His Spirit went to be with the Father.
Scripture does refute what you originally asserted - that Christ's Spirit did not return to the Father upon His physical death.
quote:
My Lord most certainly committed Himself to the charge of the Father; therefore, your second dictionary definition applies. Secondary definition of what? Whatever are you talking about?
quote:
Where? Lazarus was in "Paradise" and leaning on Abraham. Please forgive my ignorance and show me exactly where Scripture "explicitly teaches" what you say. Thanks. You are referring to a parable. Parables are not to be taken literally - they are pictures or representations of spiritual truths. I've already shown you exactly the passages where Scripture explicitly teaches about the three heavens. I guess you didn't bother to read it the first and second times I posted it so there's no reason to expect you'd read it the third time.
quote:
quote:
Christ said He(His spirit) was going to the Father(Luke 23:46). Since when is Christ "His spirit" only? The Son of God is eternal, no doubt, but it appears to me you have some difficulty in understanding the hypostatic union in Christ. I'm afraid it is you who are ignorant of what death entails and of the dual nature of Christ. In addition to giving evidence of being antagonistic toward Scripture. Christ Himself said: "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit".
quote:
quote:
Christ said the thief would be with Him in paradise(Luke 23:43).
Christ said the Father is in heaven(Mat 6:9; 16:17).
God is in paradise (Rev 2:7). All very "logical," but missing the mark, IMHO. It is no surprise you think Scripture "illogical".
quote:
quote:
Paul was caught up into the third heaven which is paradise (2Cor 12:2,4). Leap alert! What does Paul's vision have to do with our Lord's Ascension to the Right Hand of the Father? You believe Paul lied? There is no "leap"; though, for whatever reason, you are unable or refuse to compare scripture with scripture.
quote:
quote:
Christ declared as He died "It is finished". Therefore, all the penalty of sin was paid for by Christ. Actually, there's a better explanation...the New Covenant Passover was "finished." Let me know if you're interested in discussing it and I'll try to visit as I can. There can never be a better explanation of the entire penalty of sin being paid for than Christ's perfect substitutional death on the Cross. Sure, I'd be interested in discussing additional insights, I'm always interested in everything the Bible has to say on a matter.
quote:
I'm beginning to believe we may never see eye-to-eye, kelman, but I wish you the Peace of Christ, nonetheless. As I wish for you, gatolover.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/9/2008 8:36:40 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
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Hi kelman,
Against my better judgment, I'll go one more round.
quote:
Just stating the obvious facts. Why do you have such a difficult time understanding that Christ's body was in the tomb while His Spirit was in heaven. After all, Scripture clearly states this fact.
Please point out the Scriptural reference that confirms "that Christ's body was in the tomb while His Spirit was in heaven." If, as you say, "Scripture clearly states this fact," it shouldn't be a problem for you to produce it. I haven't been able to find it in all my long years.
quote:
Nope, never said that - never even thought it. But, apparently you think His Spirit is superfluous.
Actually, since the Incarnation, the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union declared by the Christ's Church governs my understanding; therefore, His Spirit AND Body are necessary for our hope of salvation. One Person.
quote:
I have no idea what you could possibly mean by "make it all right".
Why... "save" us, of course. Forgive all our sins, "past, present, and future." Make us all "eternally secure." Isn't that what you believe our Lord merited for us?
quote:
There is no violence done to the dual nature of Christ to assert what Scripture plainly states - that, upon His death, His body was laid in the tomb while His Spirit went to be with the Father.
I think there is. Again, I ask you to produce your proof from Scripture alone.
quote:
Scripture does refute what you originally asserted - that Christ's Spirit did not return to the Father upon His physical death.
Show me.
quote:
Secondary definition of what? Whatever are you talking about?
You posted definitions, kelman. Don't you remember what you write? Go back and read it yourself.
quote:
You are referring to a parable. Parables are not to be taken literally - they are pictures or representations of spiritual truths.
Exactly, they convey spiritual truths, so why not learn these spiritual truths from the parables taught by Christ?
quote:
I've already shown you exactly the passages where Scripture explicitly teaches about the three heavens. I guess you didn't bother to read it the first and second times I posted it so there's no reason to expect you'd read it the third time.
I'm not interested in your interpretation of Scripture regarding "three heavens," or four heavens, or levels of heaven. Please show me the passage that you assert confirms that my Lord's Spirit was ascended immediately upon His Death, with the "good thief" in tow, while His Body was laid in a tomb.
Thanks.
More Peace of Christ during your Lenten journey.
gatolover
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/11/2008 5:17:43 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
Please point out the Scriptural reference that confirms "that Christ's body was in the tomb while His Spirit was in heaven." If, as you say, "Scripture clearly states this fact," it shouldn't be a problem for you to produce it. I haven't been able to find it in all my long years.
And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 And laid it in his own new tomb, -Matthew 27:59-60
Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. -Luke 23:46
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. -Luke 23:43
quote:
Actually, since the Incarnation, the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union declared by the Christ's Church governs my understanding; therefore, His Spirit AND Body are necessary for our hope of salvation. One Person. Yes, a human being who when he dies his spirit separates from his body. "His Spirit AND Body" is what we get at His Resurrection. Christ is called the "firstborn" from the dead. The Lord Jesus precedes what happens to the saints in heaven on the last day. Their resurrected spirits reunite with their glorious resurrected bodies. As Scripture says: "...the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."
Are you really saying Christ's spirit was in the tomb, contrary to all Scripture?
quote:
quote:
I have no idea what you could possibly mean by "make it all right". Why... "save" us, of course. Forgive all our sins, "past, present, and future." Make us all "eternally secure." Isn't that what you believe our Lord merited for us? Should've said what you meant in the first place. It's unfortunate you don't seem to believe in being "saved" as seen from your telling use of quotes. Unfortunate also, you don't seem to be believe what Scripture clearly states:
and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
quote:
quote:
There is no violence done to the dual nature of Christ to assert what Scripture plainly states - that, upon His death, His body was laid in the tomb while His Spirit went to be with the Father. I think there is. Again, I ask you to produce your proof from Scripture alone.
You may "think" all you want. What matters is what Scripture says - which I have again provided for you above. Without His physical human body Christ’s essence as God the Son, the second Person of the Trinity, shone forth. It appears you have no understanding whatsoever of the hypostatic union.
quote:
quote:
Secondary definition of what? Whatever are you talking about? You posted definitions, kelman. Don't you remember what you write? Go back and read it yourself. Hey, gat, you're the one calling something "secondary definitions". I'm not a mind reader to know what YOU consider "secondary definitions" so provide the statements this way we all can know what you're talking about. Or are you just typing for the sake of typing and disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing?
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Exactly, they convey spiritual truths, so why not learn these spiritual truths from the parables taught by Christ? I know I have; but, it must be wondered why you apparently are unable to.
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I'm not interested in your interpretation of Scripture regarding "three heavens," or four heavens, or levels of heaven. LOL....I haven't "interpreted" anything. I simply posted the scriptural verses where God describes the three heavens, paradise, where the Father is, where Christ's spirit went, where the thief's spirit went, where Paul went in his vision. It is apparent you simply reject Scripture.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/13/2008 11:24:04 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
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Hi kelman,
I asked: quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
Please point out the Scriptural reference that confirms "that Christ's body was in the tomb while His Spirit was in heaven." If, as you say, "Scripture clearly states this fact," it shouldn't be a problem for you to produce it. I haven't been able to find it in all my long years.
You responded: quote:
And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 And laid it in his own new tomb, -Matthew 27:59-60
This does not address my question.
quote:
Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. -Luke 23:46
And this brings us back to your dictionary definitions posted earlier:
quote:
1. to place beside or near or set before. 2. to deposit, to intrust, commit to one's charge
I tried to get you to understand that our Lord Jesus Christ "commended" His Spirit to His Father in Trust. Your assumption that our Lord's "into thy hands I commend my spirt" MUST mean He was immediately before the Throne in Heaven begs the question. Why? Surely our Lord was worthy of being immediately "raptured," but He had more work to do visiting "the spirits in prison," and such, which made His Glorious Ascension into Heaven all the more Glorious!
quote:
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. -Luke 23:43
And verily I say unto thee...I'm surpriseth that you don't realize there was no punctuation in the original manuscripts.
If you're truly interested in understanding my view, google the Catholic Catechism and look up Articles 4 and 5. It shouldn't be hard to find, and it might enlighten your understanding a bit.
Blessed Lent,
gatolover
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/15/2008 4:36:15 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
Hi kelman,
I asked:
quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
Please point out the Scriptural reference that confirms "that Christ's body was in the tomb while His Spirit was in heaven." If, as you say, "Scripture clearly states this fact," it shouldn't be a problem for you to produce it. I haven't been able to find it in all my long years.
You responded:
quote:
And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 And laid it in his own new tomb, -Matthew 27:59-60
This does not address my question.
It most certainly does BEGIN to answer your question. Sometimes it actually takes comparing scripture with scripture to come to truth - that would necessitate more than one passage to prove a biblical truth.
quote:
quote:
Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. -Luke 23:46
And this brings us back to your dictionary definitions posted earlier:
1. to place beside or near or set before. 2. to deposit, to intrust, commit to one's charge No it doesn't bring us back to my "dictionary" definition. But, what it does actually bring us back to is the English definition of the GREEK word "commend". If you are displeased with the Greek lexicon's definition - then present another one more to you liking. Personally, I've yet to see anything different; but, please educate us.
quote:
I tried to get you to understand that our Lord Jesus Christ "commended" His Spirit to His Father in Trust. Your assumption that our Lord's "into thy hands I commend my spirt" MUST mean He was immediately before the Throne in Heaven begs the question. Why? And, I have repeatedly told you why the Lord's Spirit was in heaven "this day". Why His Spirit was there is because Scripture says it was. I'm not making any "assumptions" because Scripture is clear where Christ's Spirit went. You, otoh, must ignore vital scripture to come to your erroneous conclusion.
quote:
Surely our Lord was worthy of being immediately "raptured," but He had more work to do visiting "the spirits in prison," The Lord's Spirit did NOT visit any prisons. You just don't understand what 1Peter 3:19 is teaching. Clearly you don't understand what the Bible teaches about the "rapture" - it includes one's physical body.
Christ had no further "work" to do. He said "it is finished". And, the proof no further work was being done is that His body saw no corruption as it laid in the tomb.
quote:
quote:
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. -Luke 23:43
And verily I say unto thee...I'm surpriseth that you don't realize there was no punctuation in the original manuscripts. I'm continually amazed at your dismissal of Scripture. You ask me to prove from Scripture where Christ's body and spirit went after His Crucifixion. So I did. And, how do you reply?....with some absurd silliness about punctuation.
It is an indefensible argument to suggest that Christ is clarifying the day on which He is speaking. With your reasoning Christ might have said "I say unto you, tomorrow"....or perhaps, He might have said "I say unto you, yesterday".....absurd!
quote:
If you're truly interested in understanding my view, google the Catholic Catechism and look up Articles 4 and 5. It shouldn't be hard to find, and it might enlighten your understanding a bit.
If that's where you're getting your understanding about 1Peter 3, Luke 23:43, etc., and your dismissal of other scriptural verses, thanks, but, I'll pass.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/15/2008 11:47:41 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
Joined: 12/22/2007
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Gatolover,
I'm gonna jump in here a minute. Are you saying the reason our Lord was not immediately in Heaven after He commended His spirit to the Father is because He descended into Hades (or Hell) as the Creed says? "Was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into Hell (or the dead). The third day He rose again. He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty..."
This is what I think you're trying to say. Am I right?
HD
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/16/2008 5:33:47 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
Gatolover,
I'm gonna jump in here a minute. Are you saying the reason our Lord was not immediately in Heaven after He commended His spirit to the Father is because He descended into Hades (or Hell) as the Creed says? "Was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into Hell (or the dead). The third day He rose again. He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty..."
This is what I think you're trying to say. Am I right?
HD
To assert that Christ went to a physical place called hell after He died will not harmonize with the rest of Scripture. When we understand what "hell" means which is "to be under the wrath of God", we have perfect harmony in Scripture.
We can know for a fact that what Christ said was true and trustworthy - that Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit ; and, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/18/2008 10:40:21 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
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kelman,
I pray your Lenten observances are going well for you.
You initially wrote: quote:
There is no violence done to the dual nature of Christ to assert what Scripture plainly states - that, upon His death, His body was laid in the tomb while His Spirit went to be with the Father.
And again asserted in another post: quote:
You may "think" all you want. What matters is what Scripture says - which I have again provided for you above. Without His physical human body Christ’s essence as God the Son, the second Person of the Trinity, shone forth. It appears you have no understanding whatsoever of the hypostatic union.
More accurately, it is you who have "no understanding whatsoever of the hypostatic union" as defined by the Catholic Church centuries ago. As it is, you are free to make up your own definitions willy-nilly whenever you choose, which you have taken the opportunity to do.
quote:
Hey, gat, you're the one calling something "secondary definitions".
More accurately, kelman, YOU called what I pointed out as the "second" definition you provided, "secondary." I think both meanings you posted are equally sufficient and provide a point of reference when it comes to understanding concepts, as long as they are understood in their proper perspective, which appears to be a problem when it comes to the diverse views of evangelical Christians, especially regarding our hope of salvation in Christ Jesus Our Lord. If you have difficulty recalling your posting of definitions and who calls what what or when or how, perhaps it would be best if you refrained from posting "definitions" in the future? Just a thought, especially if there are more than one meaning for the word from the KJV you are attempting to "define?"
quote:
I'm not a mind reader to know what YOU consider "secondary definitions" so provide the statements this way we all can know what you're talking about. Or are you just typing for the sake of typing and disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing?
Hopefully, this nonsense will end after you revisit your own writings.
quote:
LOL....I haven't "interpreted" anything.
Until you realize that you, in fact, "interpret" EVERYTHING, there isn't much hope that you might see things from any perspective but your own, which renders these forums a useless tool toward communication with you. Unfortunate, but not suprising.
quote:
It is apparent you simply reject Scripture.
No, kelman. I love God and venerate Scripture appropriately. I simply reject your inadequate understanding/interpretation of it.
Peace out.
gatolover
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/18/2008 10:55:11 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
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Hi Heavendweller,
quote:
I'm gonna jump in here a minute. Are you saying the reason our Lord was not immediately in Heaven after He commended His spirit to the Father is because He descended into Hades (or Hell) as the Creed says? "Was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into Hell (or the dead). The third day He rose again. He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty..."
This is what I think you're trying to say. Am I right?
I thought I said it rather clearly, especially when I pointed kelman to the Catechism Articles 4 and 5, but yes, that is basically what I'm "trying" to say. 
I suppose I'm trying to get evangelicals to realize that the Resurrection of Christ is an integral component of our hope of salvation. Too many times I hear an over-emphasis on Christ's death on the Cross accompanied by a misunderstanding of His "It is finished," which they interpret as "forgiveness of all MY sins, past, present, and future, and an eternal security that can never be lost despite any sins committed by me, including turning and running from the Grace of God."
Christ's work of Redemption was not "finished" on the Cross. Without the Resurrection, our faith is vain and we are still in our sins. [See 1Cor. 15:16] The New Covenant Passover in His Blood was "finished" when He drank the fourth cup from the Cross. The Paschal Lamb, High Priest and Victim, fulfilled the Passover in His Flesh. Awesome!
God's blessings on your Lenten Journey,
gatolover
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/19/2008 5:19:29 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
More accurately, it is you who have "no understanding whatsoever of the hypostatic union" as defined by the Catholic Church centuries ago. As it is, you are free to make up your own definitions willy-nilly whenever you choose, which you have taken the opportunity to do.
Since you seem to disagree to Christ's dual nature, it would appear that it is you who "willy-nilly" makes up definitions. Just as you didn't know what you own denomination teaches concerning the rapture, apparently, you don't know what it teaches concerning the nature of Christ. You think that the separation of Christ's spirit from His body upon death somehow violates the hypostatic union; yet, your own denomination teaches exactly that.
quote:
More accurately, kelman, YOU called what I pointed out as the "second" definition you provided, "secondary." Going to put this baby to bed once and for all - this is pure silliness on your part. Since you continue to write what is simply not true, I took your advice and went back a few posts and checked. Too bad you didn't bother before repeating this bit of silliness again. I never called anything "secondary" you did and the following is the proof.
You know you could have just answered my question when I asked what you meant by "secondary definitions" instead of going through this ridiculous charade of yours.
The following is from THIS POST
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
His bodily ascension did not take place until forty days after the Resurrection. Yet, we know for a fact, upon physical death His Spirit went to be with the Father - He declares so - "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit". And "commend" holds the meaning -1. to place beside or near or set before. 2. to deposit, to intrust, commit to one's charge
gatolover's response:
Again, I ask...what is this propensity of yours to separate our Lord Jesus Christ into parts; i.e., spirit and flesh? According to you, Christ's Body is superfluous? Why didn't the Father just make it all right with the "spirit" of Christ being crucified, buried, and resurrected? I see no refutation of my point that the hypostatic union remains true beyond Christ's Ascension to the Right Hand of the Father. My Lord most certainly committed Himself to the charge of the Father; therefore, your second dictionary definition applies.
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If you have difficulty recalling your posting of definitions and who calls what what or when or how, perhaps it would be best if you refrained from posting "definitions" in the future? In light of the above, who best should refrain from making ridiculous assertions? And, to think, you need only to have answered when I asked "what secondary definitions"? ...whew
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Hopefully, this nonsense will end after you revisit your own writings.
A nonsensical foolishness which you insist upon perpetuating ....revist your own writings above.
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LOL....I haven't "interpreted" anything. Until you realize that you, in fact, "interpret" EVERYTHING, It seems you are unable to recognize "pure" scripture when you see it. I made it easy for you, I bolded the actual scriptural passages concerning where Christ's body and spirit were. No interpretation needed and none was given.
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No, kelman. I love God and venerate Scripture appropriately. I simply reject your inadequate understanding/interpretation of it. Rather, in fact, you absolutely reject the clear uninterpreted bolded passages as presented to you.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/26/2008 11:05:23 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
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kelman,
quote:
Since you seem to disagree to Christ's dual nature,
Since I have no idea what motivated such a preposterous accusation, I will refrain from gracing such a graceless and unfair accusation with further comment. Everyone can rest assured I have not disagreed "to" Christ's dual nature in the least bit. I do, however, have a problem with Christian theology that tends to separate our Lord into parts, as kelman has done.
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Just as you didn't know what you own denomination teaches concerning the rapture, apparently, you don't know what it teaches concerning the nature of Christ.
This is pathetic, kelman. You will find no "nihil obstat" on the "Left Behind" series, and you are utterly clueless when it comes to Catholic theology if you think the "rapture" [as understood by the left-behinders] is remotely taught as truth in the Catholic Church. You amaze me. I cannot believe someone so incredibly distant from the Catholic mindset could possibly find the gall to post such utter untruths concerning a doctrine he has not a clue about. If nothing else, you are persistent, kelman; but unlike the widow in the parable, I think you're just biting ankles like a bipolar, overly-persistent Chihuahua.
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You think that the separation of Christ's spirit from His body upon death somehow violates the hypostatic union; yet, your own denomination teaches exactly that.
Again, you spew falsehood. Considering the fact that you refused to research the teaching of the Church regarding the issue, I guess you are free to continue to believe what you like about the Church you despise. I pray someday you get over your acceptance of "denominationalism." There is no such thing in Christ's Church. It's unbiblical, as a matter of fact.
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Going to put this baby to bed once and for all - this is pure silliness on your part. Since you continue to write what is simply not true, I took your advice and went back a few posts and checked. Too bad you didn't bother before repeating this bit of silliness again. I never called anything "secondary" you did and the following is the proof.
You know you could have just answered my question when I asked what you meant by "secondary definitions" instead of going through this ridiculous charade of yours.
Ummm...kelman? You proved my point. You referred to "secondary" definitions; I called it the "second" because it was number 2. No need to apologize for your anger, I forgive you. We all make mistakes.
You are aware that "secondary" has a connotation that "second" does not necessarily convey?
You posted the definitions, not me. Take a chill pill and enjoy your Lenten repentence.
Peace out and get a grip,
gatolover
< Message edited by gatolover -- 2/26/2008 11:11:37 PM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/27/2008 4:44:57 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Since you seem to disagree to Christ's dual nature,
Since I have no idea what motivated such a preposterous accusation, Not preposterous at all, since you're quite unclear as to where Christ's spirit went as His body lay in the tomb. You think this somehow violates His dual nature; but, it only violates your incorrect understanding of hypostatic union.
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I do, however, have a problem with Christian theology that tends to separate our Lord into parts, as kelman has done. It appears you're still puzzled as to what happens upon physical death. You seem to forget or simply do not understand the human nature of Christ.
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You will find no "nihil obstat" on the "Left Behind" series, and you are utterly clueless when it comes to Catholic theology if you think the "rapture" [as understood by the left-behinders] is remotely taught as truth in the Catholic Church. I never mentioned any "Left Behind" series, that's simply in your imagination. Or more correctly your strawman since, in fact, you were clueless that your denomination teaches the rapture. Clever attempt at backtracking ...but, not clever enough.
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I cannot believe someone so incredibly distant from the Catholic mindset could possibly find the gall to post such utter untruths concerning a doctrine he has not a clue about. Whatever are you sputtering about? What "utter untruths" concerning the rapture did I have the gall to post?
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If nothing else, you are persistent, kelman; but unlike the widow in the parable, I think you're just biting ankles like a bipolar, overly-persistent Chihuahua. LOL....just seems like that to you since you've been unable to present what your own denomination teaches when asked...and asked again.
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You think that the separation of Christ's spirit from His body upon death somehow violates the hypostatic union; yet, your own denomination teaches exactly that.
Again, you spew falsehood. Which "spewed falsehood" do you have in mind?...that Christ's spirit separated from His body upon His death or that your denomination teaches exactly that?
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Considering the fact that you refused to research the teaching of the Church regarding the issue,... Why should I? You're the one who is somewhat participating in the discussion - why not present your side?
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I guess you are free to continue to believe what you like about the Church you despise. If your denomination teaches something other than what I said - present it.
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I pray someday you get over your acceptance of "denominationalism." There is no such thing in Christ's Church. It's unbiblical, as a matter of fact. Actually, what's unbiblical is your denomination when it teaches it is the one true church. It is, in fact, in error as to what a "church" is - as explained in Scripture.
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Ummm...kelman? You proved my point. You referred to "secondary" definitions; I called it the "second" because it was number 2. It is only because you are unclear of the way in which a lexicon lists its definitions that YOU would use the word "secondary". The listing is simply to denote the definition which has the most uses. And, of course, again it was you, not me, who used the word....wow...amazing, you just can't admit what's right in front of you.
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No need to apologize for your anger, I forgive you. We all make mistakes. Who's angry?...not me...just more of your many off-kilter assumptions. I simply bolded and enlarged what you apparently have been, and still are, unable to admit.
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You posted the definitions, not me. Take a chill pill and enjoy your Lenten repentence.
LOL....you're right I did post the lexicon definitions; but, I had no idea you were clueless as to how one is used.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/24/2008 7:52:53 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
Joined: 7/10/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
This topic is neverending. So as to help keep things from constantly being repeated or asked we've decided to create a perpetual discussion on the topic.
Why do catholics and protestants disagree on life after death?
Is there a purgatory? What happens when I die?
Discuss those questions and the differences in this doctrine.
Purgatory is ONLY FOR THE SAVED. It is NOT a second chance, and it is NOT a third place. You could say it is the "doormat" in front of heaven's door where you have to wipe your feet before you go in. (Poor analogy, but you get the point.) The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.
When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill, "Heaven" or "Hell". We know at once what our final destiny will be. So, why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.
The Catechism Of The Catholic Church states:
CCC 1030 - "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
CCC 1031 - "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned... ..by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7."
Links of interest:
http://www.fisheaters.com/purgatory.html
http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm#1029
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/25/2008 3:53:46 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
Status: offline
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quote:
Purgatory is ONLY FOR THE SAVED. It is NOT a second chance, and it is NOT a third place. Sure it's a third "place" not according to God, of course, but according to RC. They believe in a literal heaven, a literal hell and a literal purgatory - that equals three places.
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You could say it is the "doormat" in front of heaven's door where you have to wipe your feet before you go in.
People say a lot of things that have no truth to them - and this is one of them.
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The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) .... If someone has not been purifed by the blood of Christ, the fires of purgatory can't do it. RC apparently thinks the fire of purgatory is somehow more effective than the blood of Jesus Christ. God is clear -
1John 1:7 ....and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
- cleansed from ALL, even the socalled "venial", sins.
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So, why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." All the comments are obviously in direct contradition to 1John 1:7.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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