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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/8/2006 7:43:46 AM
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agapetos
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quote:
But I still felt like I was wrong for taking it like I was looking to this pill for joy instead of letting the fruit of the spirit give me joy, and I wasn't sure if I was grieving the spirit and thats why I felt this way or what.
Is taking a natural mood enhancer wrong? I think that it's great that for you, you know what you feel ~ that taking this med is wrong.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/8/2006 12:28:02 PM
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phosadaud
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Just don't get stuck in the trap that if you are struggling with depression it means that you aren't being a good enough Christian. Depression is very real and there are many causes for it - including physiological. Sadly, too often the church acts as though if you are struggling with a mental health issue it is always because you just don't trust God enough or you just need to know God more. It makes no sense. We don't tell someone (well, unless you are part of a WOF church) that their cancer means they just need to trust God more or their allergies mean they need to know God more. Why is it that if the chemicals in our blood get off, it's medical and has nothing to do with what kind of Christian we are, but, if the chemicals in our brains get off, it's suddenly an issue of faith and can't be biological?
And we all need to remember that God comforts those who hurt. Shame of mental health issues does not come from God. It comes from the accuser. The accuser desires to tear us down. God desires to lift us up.
As far as whether any particular individual should be taking meds - that's something that only that individual and God can know. Do what you feel God calling you to do - but don't listen to the voice of the accuser and confuse that with God. We don't "earn" the gifts of the Spirit. A gift isn't earned. And joy isn't the same thing as happiness and depression isn't the opposite of joy. You can be in the midst of a major depression and know God's joy. You can be the happiest person on the planet and not know God's joy.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/8/2006 2:36:24 PM
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debo1978
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Thank you to all of you for your reply i have read your posts over and over again being able to talk about this has defenitely given me other angles to look at what i was feeling.
and has been helpful to what i was going through last week
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/8/2006 4:38:24 PM
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stateofgrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Depression is very real and there are many causes for it - including physiological.
Just in case anyone doesn't know - physiological = characteristic of or appropriate to an organism's healthy or normal functioning . (from m-w.com)
If the brain doesn't have adequate levels of neurotransmitters like seretonim or dopamine, it won't function properly.
I use this example: Parkinson's Disease is caused by insufficient formation and action of dopamine. Very few people doubt that Parkinson's is a "legitimate" medical condition.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/16/2006 8:31:47 PM
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GraceAbounds
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Speaking on the topic in general & my own personal preference: If I need to seek medical care for my mental health, I would be cautious about any therapy or treatment that did not adequately account for the role of faith in a person’s mental and emotional well-being. There are plenty of Christian Psychologists, Counselors, Therapists etc. out there to choose from. I know that personally I would feel a lot more comfortable talking with someone that not only knew mental medicine & behavior, but also knew God's Word and worked within the structure of both to treat their patients.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/16/2006 8:55:06 PM
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agapetos
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quote:
I would be cautious about any therapy or treatment that did not adequately account for the role of faith in a person’s mental and emotional well-being. There are plenty of Christian Psychologists, Counselors, Therapists etc. out there to choose from. There are plenty out there, but they aren't always easily accessible or affordable.
And there are many therapists who don't have a personal belief but accept and encourage individuals to get involved in church life because they are aware it can help those with mental health problems.
quote:
I know that personally I would feel a lot more comfortable talking with someone that not only knew mental medicine & behavior I don't know if you have a mental health problem or not. But you may feel differently if you had one and needed to have some therapy. Many Christians with mental health problems feel guilty about having problems and many Christians ill-advice and lay guilt on those who have problems. There may be a great feeling that the therapist is going to condemn them also for having mental health problems.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/16/2006 9:27:08 PM
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GraceAbounds
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The kind of Christian Psychologists, Counselors, Therapists that I am speaking of are educated as any other secular Psychologists, Counselors, Therapists would be, in addition to being a Christian and being educated spiritually as well.
I suffered from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder a number of years ago. I had a Christian Doctor that treated me. They were a wonderful blessing.
For anyone interested:
http://www.aacc.net/
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http://www.air1.com/
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/16/2006 9:37:17 PM
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agapetos
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quote:
The kind of Christian Psychologists, Counselors, Therapists that I am speaking of are educated as any other secular Psychologists, Counselors, Therapists would be, in addition to being a Christian and being educated spiritually as well. I understand the kind of counsellors you're talking of. I was just pointing out that they aren't accessible to everyone ~ either financially or from a location point of view. And not everyone can deal with seeing someone who believes the same as them.
I've just stopped seeing a therapist. She wasn't a Christian but that didn't stop her being an excellent therapist for me. I shall be very blessed if the next one I see is half as good (so there's no debate about why I'm going to see another ~ I saw my therapist for a set number of session. The sessions threw up some stuff that made her feel I'd benefit from more indepth therapy ~ and after thinking about it, I agreed. I would have continued to see this therapist but she has actually moved away from the area ~ her dh is in the military).
We each have to find our own way through our troubles. I'm really glad that you found your way through using a Christian counsellor.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/17/2006 11:40:06 PM
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desert_rose
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It's nice to know on some level that Christian counseling actually did/does work for someone...
The absolute worst counseling I've received (and I've had some very BAD counseling) easily was without exception from Christian counselors. I'd get counseling that went against basic wisdom, counseling that was blatantly unscriptural (often worse from a Biblical standpoint than what I got from "secular" counselors) and several times it involved various spiritual abuses - like being forced to undergo "deliverance" because if I'd "just let go of the demons then I would be healed of my illnesses"...but these demons were always identified by some formula along the lines of "if a person has illness A, then that alone is proof of demons B-G and unrepentant sins H-K" where the illness alone was absolute proof of the assumed spiritual conditions and there was no need for further confirmation (like evidence of the assumed unrepentant sins). And yeah, all of these were either licensed pastors or properly accredited "Christian counselors" - either way they should have known better. Just because someone holds Christian credentials isn't a guarantee of proper counseling or of scriptural counseling...
All that said, there is wisdom to making sure that at the very least the counseling you receive isn't anti-Biblical. There's one popular therapy right now that's got deep roots in Buddhism - but they often won't tell you about the roots of the therapy until you're deep into the therapy program, if they tell you at all. Furthermore, said therapy is designed originally for borderline personality and any argument about participation in the religious elements of the therapy or about being in religious therapy at all will often be considered proof of the "black & white" thinking patterns that are one of the criteria for a borderline personality diagnosis and thus "proof that you really do need the classes"... For the record, this therapy would be DBT (dialectical behavioral therapy).
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/18/2006 3:11:45 AM
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Grick
Posts: 27
Joined: 10/21/2006
From: Richmond, Virginia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hischild1994
quote:
ORIGINAL: debo1978
No a diabetic who takes insulin is not making it a Idol. Thats something you have to take to stay alive and Is a blessing from God that it is available.
and I was telling myself things like that phosodaud when i felt bad for taking the pill. Like "you dont feel bad if you take a tylenol for a headache"
But I still felt like I was wrong for taking it like I was looking to this pill for joy instead of letting the fruit of the spirit give me joy, and I wasn't sure if I was grieving the spirit and thats why I felt this way or what.
Is taking a natural mood enhancer wrong?
If a person suffering from depression, bipolar or other mental illnesses doesn't take their meds, it can lead to suicidal thoughts. Suicidal thoughts can lead to suicidal attempts and sometimes the person succeeds. 
Mental illness is illness. If there is medicine for an illness, we should look at it as a miracle from God.
There is quite a bit of information to show a genetic component for bipolar disorder and depression. By studying family histories of people who are bipolar or have classic depression and have well documented pedigrees, it can be established beyond a reasonable doubt that it is genetic, which gives credence to it being a physical brain disorder. Just look at the family histories of Ernest Hemingway, Vincent Van Gogh, Lord Byron et. al. to see what I mean.
When I was sent to a psychiatrist because of my erratic behavior, one of the first things I was asked when I was evaluated was whether I had religious beliefs. Later another psychiatrist asked the same thing. I don't know why they asked this unless they have found it helps them to determine suicide risk or if faith helps a person deal with psychiatric disorder.
I have also found that as long as I take my meds my mood swings are much easier to deal with.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/18/2006 9:18:55 AM
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Judah1966
Posts: 53
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Depression is very real and there are many causes for it - including physiological.
Just in case anyone doesn't know - physiological = characteristic of or appropriate to an organism's healthy or normal functioning . (from m-w.com)
If the brain doesn't have adequate levels of neurotransmitters like seretonim or dopamine, it won't function properly.
I use this example: Parkinson's Disease is caused by insufficient formation and action of dopamine. Very few people doubt that Parkinson's is a "legitimate" medical condition.
I agree SOG. I believe tramas can cause this to happen like being abused, in a war, several loved ones dying ect. I dont see anything wrong anymore with taking perscribed meds for mental illiness. I tryed to get off on my own with Gods help to the best of my ability at the request of a christian friend who thought I just needed more faith. Well after several months without my medication I could feel myself starting to spiral down and not being able to think properly.The way I see it my brain has been broken many times over the years from tramas. Ive had deliverances prayers and therpy all has helped in different ways but I still need my medicine and probley will till I go home and am healed completely. I dont see it as a weakness anymore only something I need like food or air.Our brains can get broken just like any other part of our body we shouldnt be so hard on ourselves maybe MORE compassionate seeing that the brain is so complex. God didnt create our minds to go though such things no wonder if goes off track or malfuntions reminds me of a computer to a degree..
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 1/15/2007 1:10:55 PM
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drnick
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The problem is that the "chemical imbalance in the brain" theory to explain away all depression, bipolar, psychosis etc, is that it removes all responsability from the patient/the environment/parents etc.
For example:
My wife has depression, and is on Citalopram. Diagnosed in September.
She was found to have breast cancer nearly 2 years ago, had 2 ops, chemo, radio, and now has lymphoedema in her arm.
We also recently had a fire, and spent a month in temporary accomodation while the house was fixed (all family safe).
Now I'm sure if you checked her brain out, you'd find a chemical imbalance. But clearly she's experienced a lousy 2 years, and depression is a fairly predictable reaction (I've thought she's been depressed for months, but couldn't persuade her to see her doc - I don't count!  )
Similarly, a friend has had problems with depression for years, to the point she's had ECT. First started when at university, recurred after her second child.
Her dad's a church elder, who's renown as a "fixer" for struggling churches, and is a superb councellor, especially with marital issues.
Fantastic family all round. So probably "endogenous" depression (ie primary brain disorder). Except she's finally admitted to issues with inadequacy that go back to chldhood (youngest of 3, felt she didn't measure up to older siblings, plus a legalistic streak to her parenting) which she's never brough tup before. probably impossible to assess exactly how much this contributed, but may be significant.
Personally I suspect some people are more succeptable to mental illness than others, but I'd wager there is usually if not always an external element too.
Trouble is, having a mental illness tends to create an environment that reinforces the problem. Eg. people with schizophrenic, bi-polar and psychotic tendencies have a fairly high substance abuse incidence. Which almost certainly makes their mental problems worse. And most drug users have identifiable mental health issues other than addiction. But which came first?
And just because there is an extrernal influence(s) doesn't mean that it ever comes to light.
Interesting that psychiatrists have the highest suicide rate of all branches of medicine.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 1/16/2007 2:00:46 AM
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agapetos
Posts: 9718
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quote:
Except she's finally admitted to issues with inadequacy that go back to chldhood (youngest of 3, felt she didn't measure up to older siblings, plus a legalistic streak to her parenting) which she's never brough tup before. probably impossible to assess exactly how much this contributed, but may be significant. This comment has made me think of something...
Could the fact that someone discloses something about their lfe be a trigger for depression itself. Not necessarily the event itself, but the fact suddenly the secret that you've kept for years is suddenly not a secret any more.
Or could the fact that someone sees through the mask you portray to the world trigger depression?
I talking in both situations of someone who's maybe suffered from depression for years on and off and goes through a phase of being 'ok' and then falls ill because they've disclosed some information or someone has seen through the mask. Both events could be seen as positive events (if dealt with appropriately) but wouldn't they also be quite traumatic and emotional too?
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 1/16/2007 8:21:21 AM
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stateofgrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drnick
The problem is that the "chemical imbalance in the brain" theory to explain away all depression, bipolar, psychosis etc, is that it removes all responsability from the patient/the environment/parents etc.
I don't think so. We all have responsibililty for our personal actions - whether we have a chemical balance or not. We can do the things that will aid our health or detract from it.
As another example of chemical imbalance NOT related directly to mental health - my husband is right on the borderline of being diabetic. He can chose to take personal responsibility for what he eats, or not. So far, he has chosen pretty much to notNOT eat responsibly. He will have consequences, in time, for that choice.
I look upon the chemical imbalance thing in the context of mood disorders as being more vulnerable to triggers for anxiety and depression than the average person. My responsibiliy is to take care of my mental, physical, and spiritual health in order to minimize the impact of those triggers.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 1/16/2007 8:23:04 AM
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stateofgrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
Except she's finally admitted to issues with inadequacy that go back to chldhood (youngest of 3, felt she didn't measure up to older siblings, plus a legalistic streak to her parenting) which she's never brough tup before. probably impossible to assess exactly how much this contributed, but may be significant. This comment has made me think of something...
Could the fact that someone discloses something about their lfe be a trigger for depression itself. Not necessarily the event itself, but the fact suddenly the secret that you've kept for years is suddenly not a secret any more.
Or could the fact that someone sees through the mask you portray to the world trigger depression?
I talking in both situations of someone who's maybe suffered from depression for years on and off and goes through a phase of being 'ok' and then falls ill because they've disclosed some information or someone has seen through the mask. Both events could be seen as positive events (if dealt with appropriately) but wouldn't they also be quite traumatic and emotional too?
I think it can trigger depression - for one thing, the feelings have been pushed down and bottled up deep inside. Actually dealing with those feelings brings those emotions to the surface. Sharing those feelings with another person increases the feeling of vulnerability.
_____________________________
America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 1/17/2007 10:26:59 PM
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MyCatSmokey2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: womaninchrist
It's nice to know on some level that Christian counseling actually did/does work for someone...
The absolute worst counseling I've received (and I've had some very BAD counseling) easily was without exception from Christian counselors. I'd get counseling that went against basic wisdom, counseling that was blatantly unscriptural (often worse from a Biblical standpoint than what I got from "secular" counselors) and several times it involved various spiritual abuses - like being forced to undergo "deliverance" because if I'd "just let go of the demons then I would be healed of my illnesses"...but these demons were always identified by some formula along the lines of "if a person has illness A, then that alone is proof of demons B-G and unrepentant sins H-K" where the illness alone was absolute proof of the assumed spiritual conditions and there was no need for further confirmation (like evidence of the assumed unrepentant sins). And yeah, all of these were either licensed pastors or properly accredited "Christian counselors" - either way they should have known better. Just because someone holds Christian credentials isn't a guarantee of proper counseling or of scriptural counseling...
All that said, there is wisdom to making sure that at the very least the counseling you receive isn't anti-Biblical. There's one popular therapy right now that's got deep roots in Buddhism - but they often won't tell you about the roots of the therapy until you're deep into the therapy program, if they tell you at all. Furthermore, said therapy is designed originally for borderline personality and any argument about participation in the religious elements of the therapy or about being in religious therapy at all will often be considered proof of the "black & white" thinking patterns that are one of the criteria for a borderline personality diagnosis and thus "proof that you really do need the classes"... For the record, this therapy would be DBT (dialectical behavioral therapy).
I've taken the DBT classes, but because of the eastern religion influence in them, I don't practice the skills that often. The "mindfulness" skills sound good, but they tend to make me focus on the situation at hand instead of on God. "Staying in the present moment" and "developing wise mind" sound good, but I trouble with both of those concepts. It's difficult to relate Biblical principles to most of the DBT skills.
The only DBT skills that I actually "practice", if you can even call it that, are the distress tolerance skills. Those skills are ways to distract myself when I'm in a crisis. Praying, listening to Christian music and reading God's Word are some of the "distress tolerance" skills that I use to cope with difficult situations in my life. These are good ways to cope with a crisis, so I feel that that part of the DBT program can be used to glorify God.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 1/18/2007 3:31:02 PM
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salsadip
Posts: 183
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From: my avatar is Lily Allen
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Given the last post on here was November, i don't feel to bad at posting something a little off track maybe.
I work in a therapy department with mostly under 21's as my client base. The majority of conditions i deal with relate to depression in one way or another, which is cool as that's what my masters is in, i'm 2/3rds through that.
I have in the last few weeks converted and started to read the bible and am finding the connection between psychological principles and scripture quite interesting.
For example, looking at the movement in this scripture
Perfect love casts out all fear
love moves forward, embraces, is open
fear moves away from, rejects and often closes
Fascinating!
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sALSa
My Photo's
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 1/22/2007 1:22:00 PM
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Hischild1994
Posts: 975
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Grick
quote:
ORIGINAL: Hischild1994
quote:
ORIGINAL: debo1978
No a diabetic who takes insulin is not making it a Idol. Thats something you have to take to stay alive and Is a blessing from God that it is available.
and I was telling myself things like that phosodaud when i felt bad for taking the pill. Like "you dont feel bad if you take a tylenol for a headache"
But I still felt like I was wrong for taking it like I was looking to this pill for joy instead of letting the fruit of the spirit give me joy, and I wasn't sure if I was grieving the spirit and thats why I felt this way or what.
Is taking a natural mood enhancer wrong?
If a person suffering from depression, bipolar or other mental illnesses doesn't take their meds, it can lead to suicidal thoughts. Suicidal thoughts can lead to suicidal attempts and sometimes the person succeeds.
Mental illness is illness. If there is medicine for an illness, we should look at it as a miracle from God.
There is quite a bit of information to show a genetic component for bipolar disorder and depression. By studying family histories of people who are bipolar or have classic depression and have well documented pedigrees, it can be established beyond a reasonable doubt that it is genetic, which gives credence to it being a physical brain disorder. Just look at the family histories of Ernest Hemingway, Vincent Van Gogh, Lord Byron et. al. to see what I mean.
When I was sent to a psychiatrist because of my erratic behavior, one of the first things I was asked when I was evaluated was whether I had religious beliefs. Later another psychiatrist asked the same thing. I don't know why they asked this unless they have found it helps them to determine suicide risk or if faith helps a person deal with psychiatric disorder.
I have also found that as long as I take my meds my mood swings are much easier to deal with.
I was adopted. I did find my birthmother's family. From what I have learned of their genetics, there has never been anyone in the family who was diagnosed with bp. However, when I think back over some of the things my birthmother did before I was taken away from her, I wonder if she wasn't bp. I know one of her sisters definately has some MI problems. My birthmother did admit to having problems with depression and that she was on meds for that. She has passed on now, so I can't talk with her more about it.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 2/10/2007 7:54:14 AM
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agapetos
Posts: 9718
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: This side of the lil duck pond!
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quote:
Since it's been a couple of months since anyone posted in this thread Actually it's been less than a month.
quote:
I believe that if a person is a danger to themselves or others, they need to seek treatment, even if someone encourages them to do so, or the courts required them to. I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying here so I'm guessing some with my response. I'm taking it that you mean that if they are a danger to themselves or others they need to have some sort of treatment, whether they want it or not. A person needs to recognise that they are a danger to themselves or others before they think about seeking treatment. Sadly, not many people do. I've been at points in my life where I probably needed treatment or more treatment than I was getting but I simply didn't realise it.
quote:
If someone is NOT a danger to themselves or others, though, then I believe that no one should force them into treatment I think there may be a fine line sometimes between when a person is and isn't a danger to themselves or others. They may be fine (in the sense they are no danger) for a long time but then something will cause a trigger and they'll do harm to themselves or someone.
Mental illness doesn't necessarily need medication or other treatment. Depending on what the problem is depends on what should be done. Some people, while having a mental illness are able to manage it through a good regime ~ diet, exercise, coping strategies, self-monitoring etc. Others may need to have some additional support ~ regular monitoring by a doctor or nurse. Others may need medication and a whole lot of support.
Ultimately, unless a person is going to be detained indefinately there's probably no real way you can force someone to have treatment ~ and even detaining may not work unless the treatment (if it includes medication) doesn't include oral medication ~ because it's easy to pretend to swallow this.
_____________________________
Stovie, Stovie, what am I going to do with you!
Maggie
September 09
My blog
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 2/10/2007 6:57:06 PM
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cih92
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How do you distinguish between a bodily problem and a soul problem? Can problems with your soul cause problems in your body and vice versa?
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 2/10/2007 7:11:13 PM
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agapetos
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cih92 ~ what do you mean by soul? Our mental health or spiritual health?
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September 09
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