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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2009 12:39:49 PM
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heremainsfaithful
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Mental illness IS physiological because it involves a part of the body -- the brain. Just because you can't see a limp or a blood sugar reading does not mean the disease does not exist. To say mental illness is a spiritual problem is just as narrow as saying diabetes is a spiritual problem. We can't see the pancreas or sugar in the blood either. 20 some years ago, my husband (who has type 1 diabetes) was told by a pastor that his diabetes was really a demon and that if he were truly spiritual his blood sugar would become controlled. Does anybody here REALLY think that is valid? Heavens, I hope not So why do we look at someone who has a physiological condition that happens to be located in the brain and tell them that if they were saved or read Gal. 5:22, 23they wouldn't be sick? Why do we tell someone who is completely enveloped in an unexplainable (unless you look at their PET scan) depression and tell them they are just sad and to pray and suck it up? How dare a pastor tell a sick person not to take medicine for it? How dare an insurance company make an unfounded an unbiblical judgement not to allow an entire segment of the population not to get treatment?
When I take medication, I am stable both physically and mentally. I can be a mother, a wife, a church member. When I was not receiving treatment, undiagnosedfor all those years, my husband suffered, my children suffered....I poured through God's Word, I prayed, I cried, and nothing would stop it. Iwas the one who refused to accept that it might be some "mental illness that a truly spiritual peron could pray trough." I was the one who refused to even think about "mind-altering drugs." After I nearly destroyed my family and myself, I finally caved, so to speak. The first time my husband was able to ask me a question about a bill and not be torn into by a mad woman, he sat on the couch and wept with relief.
Don't tell me mental illness doesn't exist. And don't tell me it doesn't need treatment. Not unless you have an armload of in-context passages and full verses to back it up.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 10/18/2009 12:48:58 AM
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magdaleine
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Well said, HRF!
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Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 10/18/2009 6:27:36 PM
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pink..
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BENZODIAZEPINE BAN IN NEW ZEALAND
Posted on 07 Oct 2009
Yesterday Transport Minister Steven Joyce announced that he is going to include benzodiazepines among banned substances for drivers.
BENZODIAZEPINE BAN IN NEW ZEALAND
_____________________________
Gratitude is a vaccine, an antitoxin and an antiseptic.
~ John Henry Jowett
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2009 12:39:21 PM
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m1thrand1r
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As I've read through this thread I see the same basic lines being drawn between positions that I've read again and again. The major problem that I have with most of what is said by those who are opposed to modern psychological techniques and therapy is that they tend to speak from a position of ignorance about what psychology really is.
As someone who has heard nouthetic positions defended all his life, I decided to do my own research "from the horses mouth." After listening to two entire semesters worth of college level classes (an intro to Psych class from MIT and a Pastoral Counseling class from Reformed Theological Seminary) I sat down and wrote a compare and contrast which I've posted over here.
It's easy enough to throw out words like "biblical" since we all want to follow the Scriptures. However, we must use extreme caution to read the Text as it was written for the purpose it was written. Treating the story of Saul's "evil spirit from the Lord" as a case study in mental health is like declaring that Poe's The Raven is a treatise on ornithology. It just doesn't quite work.
I'm glad that people are out there having this discussion and I look forward to seeing a lot more of it going forward.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 9:29:52 AM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1redfern
I found this interesting story on ssri.
http://ssristories.com/
quote:
Adverse reactions are most likely to occur when starting or discontinuing the drug, increasing or lowering the dose or when switching from one SSRI to another. Adverse reactions are often diagnosed as bipolar disorder when the symptoms may be entirely iatrogenic (treatment induced).
Same as medication for most health conditions.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 11/11/2009 5:40:34 PM
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Anon101
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1redfern
I found this interesting story on ssri.
http://ssristories.com/
quote:
Adverse reactions are most likely to occur when starting or discontinuing the drug, increasing or lowering the dose or when switching from one SSRI to another. Adverse reactions are often diagnosed as bipolar disorder when the symptoms may be entirely iatrogenic (treatment induced).
Same as medication for most health conditions.
I agree. My husband was recently diagnosed as bipolar. They put him on bipolar meds and he got worse. He stopped taking the meds and he says his doctor is going to put him on an antidepressant. Right now though, since he went cold-turkey (he chose to do this) and hasn't gotten a script for the new medication he is like a time bomb waiting to off. Very tense.
I know any medication that changes the chemicals in your brain and their major functions i.e.: Dopamine; Serotonin; Norepinephrine; Acetylcholine; and GABA are addictive and very sensitive to ANY changes.
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Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2009 1:08:42 PM
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pink..
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JOHNS HOPKINS ARTICLE
Xanax (alprazolam), Klonopin (clonazepam), and Valium (diazepam)—are effective for alleviating anxiety, but they are also powerful drugs with serious side effects. Among the most dangerous is the development of both physical and psychological dependency. In fact, more than one third of people taking benzodiazepines for anxiety for more than one month become dependent on them.
Because of this high risk, the prescribing physician should monitor patients closely, and patients considering these antianxiety drugs should understand both the possible side effects and the precautions to take to avoid developing dependence.
Continued in link.
_____________________________
Gratitude is a vaccine, an antitoxin and an antiseptic.
~ John Henry Jowett
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/11/2009 11:17:30 PM
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Melissa11102006
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That's why I no longer take Klonopin and Ativan, because I don't want to get dependent on them. The risk of suicide by overdosing on these types of medications is higher too.
Someone brought up a situation in another thread, fourth paragraph that I thought might be worth pursuing here. What do you think about the way that the mentally ill are treated in this country? I'm thinking about how they're treated in jails and prisons, where they shouldn't be, in my opinion. People with mental illnesses that are serious enough to require close, locked supervision, should be at a psychiatric facility, not in jail.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/14/2009 1:42:34 PM
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heremainsfaithful
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This is interesting to me, especially right now when my disease has affected the security of my job. I believe that in theory, unless someone is just ignorant or in denial, that mental illness has less of a stigma than it used to have. In practice, it just depends.
One thing I wish for is a definitive test that can show those chemical changes and imbalances. PET scans and others have been used before, but maybe if I had a nice, concrete picture of my brain and my chemistry, the issue wouldn't be as muddy for some people. Al though, people who are determined not to change their minds rarely change their minds.
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Jer. 29:11, II Tim. 2:13, Jude 24, 25
https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=58896
Eihstein's IQ may be higher than mine, but God's IQ is higher than anyone's.
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Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/14/2009 2:09:12 PM
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pink..
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I did not intend this to be a debate, but some think it doesn't fit in the Encouragement thread, so I will post it here for them.
I'm not anti-meds, but I do wonder why pdocs, therapists, etc. seem to want to try that first? I know insurance companies encourage meds because it's cheaper.
(my next post on the subject):
Sometimes you have a patient who is strongly opposed to medications for a variety of reasons and they meet up with strong resistance from professionals because they choose to use non-medicinal means to treat their illness(es).
_____________________________
Gratitude is a vaccine, an antitoxin and an antiseptic.
~ John Henry Jowett
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/14/2009 11:41:39 PM
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Bountiful
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Roberta, I agree that professionals are probably too eager to get people on medication. But it's often difficult to even counsel people if they're brain chemicals are all over the map.
Non-medication is great if an alternative plan is working, but how should that be determined? It's often difficult enough to gain access to pdocs, counselors, etc., never mind be able to see the same one for long enough periods of time to really deal with the problem. And sometimes long-term counseling therapy treatment is just too expense for a lot of people.
I don't think anyone likes to be on meds all the time. But sometimes we have to accept that it is the reality of our situation.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/15/2009 12:18:39 AM
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Mollymouser
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I don't think that the rush to prescribe is limited to mental health issues.... I just think that it's faster and simpler and cheaper (sometimes) for some health care providers (not all) and some patients (not all) to just opt for a pill or two to "fix things" rather than exploring other options. I certainly know that a lot more children and teens are being prescribed medication for things like ADHD and related issues than ever before -- and I can't help but wonder sometimes if that is best.
There are some people who reach for medication whenever they get a headache, and others who instead choose to figure out why they have a headache. Overtired? Dehydrated? Tense? High Blood Pressure? Sinus Infection? While an aspirin or Tylenol may solve the symptom (headache), it doesn't solve the underlying problem. Now I don't mean to equate a simple headache with mental illness, but I think you get the point I'm making.
In some cases, I think medication should be a last resort, rather than a first resort. And if you have a health care provider who dismisses lifestyle changes, dietary changes, and non-medication means (therapy, etc.) to effectuate change as viable options in lieu of a prescription, then perhaps a second opinion may be warranted?
When it comes to people and health issues, there is no one-size-fits-all answer.
_____________________________
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/15/2009 2:27:24 AM
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a_sparrow
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quote:
I don't think that the rush to prescribe is limited to mental health issues.... I just think that it's faster and simpler and cheaper (sometimes) for some health care providers (not all) and some patients (not all) to just opt for a pill or two to "fix things" rather than exploring other options
I agree with this. I also think that the idea of therapy can be frightening to a lot of people. It can be scary and unpleasant to face issues that may have caused or may be aggravating mh problems. Perhaps the desire to avoid the revelations or negative emotions to which therapy may lead makes the "patch it up and keep it moving" approach attractive to some people who are already feeling overwhelmed b/c of their mh problems.
Of course, it can be scary to find out the cause of some physical symptoms, too, so perhaps this motive for choosing medication as the first and only resort isn't limited to mh situations.
quote:
Non-medication is great if an alternative plan is working, but how should that be determined? It's often difficult enough to gain access to pdocs, counselors, etc., never mind be able to see the same one for long enough periods of time to really deal with the problem. And sometimes long-term counseling therapy treatment is just too expense for a lot of people.
This is true as well. Some simply can't afford to choose non-medicine based treatments instead of (or in addition to) meds.
I do think that certain highly addictive medicines are prescribed more quickly than they should be. I'm not sure about much else when it comes to this topic, though.
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Elizabeth
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/15/2009 2:41:29 AM
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agapetos
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quote:
I'm not anti-meds, but I do wonder why pdocs, therapists, etc. seem to want to try that first? I know insurance companies encourage meds because it's cheaper.
(my next post on the subject):
Sometimes you have a patient who is strongly opposed to medications for a variety of reasons and they meet up with strong resistance from professionals because they choose to use non-medicinal means to treat their illness(es). I think you're asking 2 different things here and will repeat what I said in the other thread where you asked...
Therapists aren't allowed to prescribe medication unless they have also qualified (and maintained that qualification) as a medical doctor. They can have an imput into what the patient may need regarding medication though. Personally my doctors and psychologists have always worked together, taking my feelings regarding medication into account so that we can all come to an agreed course of action. There have been a few occassions where I have been so ill that the doctors have had to prescribe something for me without discussion (that actually forms part of my care plan now).
The second question is very difficult to answer. You haven't really specified what 'non-medicinal' means. It really covers a multitude of things from lifestyle changes and therapy (as Molly said) to alternative medication which is supposed to be beneficial for some mental health conditions.
Sometimes a person is so ill that they need to be treated to get to a point where they can make their own decisions. Would you really want to be able to answer whether you want life-saving surgery after a car crash when you're drifting in and out of consciousness? Yes the doctor needs to listen to the patient, but the patient also needs to listen to their doctor
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/15/2009 2:52:31 AM
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agapetos
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quote:
I also think that the idea of therapy can be frightening to a lot of people. And again, sometimes people are simply too ill (mentally) for therapy.
quote:
I do think that certain highly addictive medicines are prescribed more quickly than they should be. My doctor is very cautious about prescribing addictive medication (though I do have a couple which are). We've had some interesting discussions about it. Care does need to be taken, but it's not always the doctor's fault in prescribing the medication, it's sometimes the patient's fault by NOT taking the medication as prescribed. I spoke to my doctor about her giving me some medication (addictive) and how I wanted to take it (formed by the way she had previously instructed me to take it) and why I wanted it. She was happy to give it to me on the understanding that I took it as we'd discussed. My doctor knows me, she trusts me to take my medications responsibly and as instructed. The meds are on my repeat prescription list but I know that I won't get away with requesting them for a while.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/15/2009 3:07:45 AM
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agapetos
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quote:
I did not intend this to be a debate, but some think it doesn't fit in the Encouragement thread, so I will post it here for them. I doesn't have to be a debate to go here.
Read Fritz's op in this thread.
quote:
This thread is created in order to provide an area for users to debate and discuss mental health related issues such as the following
The encouragment thread says
quote:
This thread is created in order to provide an area for users to encourage those who suffer from mental health related issues such as the following
You're asking questions about doctors and prescribing techniques, which haven't (from what you've posted) necessarily affected you personally.
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Stovie, Stovie, what am I going to do with you!
Maggie
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Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/15/2009 10:06:20 AM
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pink..
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bountiful
Non-medication is great if an alternative plan is working, but how should that be determined? It's often difficult enough to gain access to pdocs, counselors, etc., never mind be able to see the same one for long enough periods of time to really deal with the problem. And sometimes long-term counseling therapy treatment is just too expense for a lot of people.
Is it really easier to tell what a patients progress is like with medications? Here, most pdoc follow-up appts. are only about 15 minutes long, once a month.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mollymouser
I don't think that the rush to prescribe is limited to mental health issues.... I just think that it's faster and simpler and cheaper (sometimes) for some health care providers (not all) and some patients (not all) to just opt for a pill or two to "fix things" rather than exploring other options. I certainly know that a lot more children and teens are being prescribed medication for things like ADHD and related issues than ever before -- and I can't help but wonder sometimes if that is best.
There are some people who reach for medication whenever they get a headache, and others who instead choose to figure out why they have a headache. Overtired? Dehydrated? Tense? High Blood Pressure? Sinus Infection? While an aspirin or Tylenol may solve the symptom (headache), it doesn't solve the underlying problem. Now I don't mean to equate a simple headache with mental illness, but I think you get the point I'm making.
In some cases, I think medication should be a last resort, rather than a first resort. And if you have a health care provider who dismisses lifestyle changes, dietary changes, and non-medication means (therapy, etc.) to effectuate change as viable options in lieu of a prescription, then perhaps a second opinion may be warranted?
I agree.
quote:
When it comes to people and health issues, there is no one-size-fits-all answer.
This is true and that is why I wondered why the big push for (usually the latest) medicines? Even in the MH Encouragement thread there seems to be an underlying tone of "encouraging" medications. I've reread some of my own posts and found that to be true with myself too.
quote:
ORIGINAL: a_sparrow
I also think that the idea of therapy can be frightening to a lot of people. It can be scary and unpleasant to face issues that may have caused or may be aggravating mh problems. Perhaps the desire to avoid the revelations or negative emotions to which therapy may lead makes the "patch it up and keep it moving" approach attractive to some people who are already feeling overwhelmed b/c of their mh problems.
Of course, it can be scary to find out the cause of some physical symptoms, too, so perhaps this motive for choosing medication as the first and only resort isn't limited to mh situations.
That is true. I have found that most GPs will prescribe MH medications and not strongly encourage any type of therapy. I have found that most pdocs will very strongly recommend therapy along with their prescriptions.
quote:
Non-medication is great if an alternative plan is working, but how should that be determined? It's often difficult enough to gain access to pdocs, counselors, etc., never mind be able to see the same one for long enough periods of time to really deal with the problem. And sometimes long-term counseling therapy treatment is just too expense for a lot of people.
quote:
This is true as well. Some simply can't afford to choose non-medicine based treatments instead of (or in addition to) meds.
I do think that certain highly addictive medicines are prescribed more quickly than they should be. I'm not sure about much else when it comes to this topic, though.
That sometimes puzzles me. If you have insurance, they will often pay for your meds. When I lost my insurance, I had to pay out of pocket for my meds. It was somewhere in the neighborhood of $800/mo......... in my neck of the woods, that's higher than my mortgage! I'm wondering how much non-medicinal ways can really cost?
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
Therapists aren't allowed to prescribe medication unless they have also qualified (and maintained that qualification) as a medical doctor. They can have an input into what the patient may need regarding medication though.
That's the way it works here too.
quote:
Personally my doctors and psychologists have always worked together, taking my feelings regarding medication into account so that we can all come to an agreed course of action. There have been a few occasions where I have been so ill that the doctors have had to prescribe something for me without discussion (that actually forms part of my care plan now).
Are you saying that you can be given a medication without knowledge of what it is or what it's for?
quote:
The second question is very difficult to answer. You haven't really specified what 'non-medicinal' means. It really covers a multitude of things from lifestyle changes and therapy (as Molly said) to alternative medication which is supposed to be beneficial for some mental health conditions.
If I listed off things that pop into my head like diet, CBT and exercise I would probably only touch the tip of the iceberg on what else is available.
quote:
Sometimes a person is so ill that they need to be treated to get to a point where they can make their own decisions. Would you really want to be able to answer whether you want life-saving surgery after a car crash when you're drifting in and out of consciousness? Yes the doctor needs to listen to the patient, but the patient also needs to listen to their doctor
I understand your point, but shouldn't that be short-term? I know people who get put on the same medication for decades.
_____________________________
Gratitude is a vaccine, an antitoxin and an antiseptic.
~ John Henry Jowett
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Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/15/2009 10:14:35 AM
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pink..
Posts: 11160
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
I did not intend this to be a debate, but some think it doesn't fit in the Encouragement thread, so I will post it here for them. I doesn't have to be a debate to go here.
Read Fritz's op in this thread.
quote:
This thread is created in order to provide an area for users to debate and discuss mental health related issues such as the following
The encouragement thread says
quote:
This thread is created in order to provide an area for users to encourage those who suffer from mental health related issues such as the following
I already apologized in the other thread, but thank you for taking the time to make that post anyway.
_____________________________
Gratitude is a vaccine, an antitoxin and an antiseptic.
~ John Henry Jowett
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/15/2009 10:52:35 AM
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agapetos
Posts: 9875
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: This side of the lil duck pond!
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quote:
Are you saying that you can be given a medication without knowledge of what it is or what it's for? No, but I wasn't well enough to judge whether it would be beneficial to me. Just as, when I've needed surgery, I wasn't the best person to make the decision, I just knew that I needed treatment.
quote:
If I listed off things that pop into my head like diet, CBT and exercise I would probably only touch the tip of the iceberg on what else is available. As with all things, people often want a 'quick-fix' answer to their problems and are generally unwilling to accept that they need to change their diet, have therapy or exercise.
quote:
I understand your point, but shouldn't that be short-term? I know people who get put on the same medication for decades. Some people require medication for life (unless God heals them). I know that my medication is regularly reviewed, not just by me but by my doctors.
quote:
I already apologized in the other thread, but thank you for taking the time to make that post anyway. I wasn't expecting another apology. You just seemed a bit put out that you should be posting here instead of the MHE thread (given what you said in your post 435) and I thought you may wanted to have reread the ops of both threads for clarification.
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Maggie
September 09
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Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/15/2009 4:17:21 PM
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pink..
Posts: 11160
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
If I listed off things that pop into my head like diet, CBT and exercise I would probably only touch the tip of the iceberg on what else is available. As with all things, people often want a 'quick-fix' answer to their problems and are generally unwilling to accept that they need to change their diet, have therapy or exercise.
Even if people don't want a "quick-fix" they are generally encouraged to go on medications for mental health issues.
Actually, I've noticed this trend happening since prescription meds started being allowed to advertise on TV...... which is something that I strongly disapprove of, especially for mh medications.
_____________________________
Gratitude is a vaccine, an antitoxin and an antiseptic.
~ John Henry Jowett
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/15/2009 5:44:09 PM
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agapetos
Posts: 9875
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: This side of the lil duck pond!
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quote:
Even if people don't want a "quick-fix" they are generally encouraged to go on medications for mental health issues. Again, sometimes people are too ill to go through the draining process of therapy and/or lifestyle changes. They need to get to a point where they can deal with what the therapy is going to draw out.
quote:
Actually, I've noticed this trend happening since prescription meds started being allowed to advertise on TV...... which is something that I strongly disapprove of, especially for mh medications. Perhaps you need to write to someone in your government about it to register your disapproval?
_____________________________
Stovie, Stovie, what am I going to do with you!
Maggie
September 09
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Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/15/2009 5:53:15 PM
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pink..
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
Even if people don't want a "quick-fix" they are generally encouraged to go on medications for mental health issues. Again, sometimes people are too ill to go through the draining process of therapy and/or lifestyle changes. They need to get to a point where they can deal with what the therapy is going to draw out.
I'm not talking about people who are a threat to themselves or others.
quote:
Actually, I've noticed this trend happening since prescription meds started being allowed to advertise on TV...... which is something that I strongly disapprove of, especially for mh medications. Perhaps you need to write to someone in your government about it to register your disapproval?
The American governement is not quick to change things like that unless they see a way to make a buck out of it. 
_____________________________
Gratitude is a vaccine, an antitoxin and an antiseptic.
~ John Henry Jowett
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/15/2009 6:19:03 PM
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agapetos
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quote:
I'm not talking about people who are a threat to themselves or others. Nor am I. You don't have to be a danger to yourself or others to be really ill.
quote:
The American governement is not quick to change things like that unless they see a way to make a buck out of it. And this is reason to not do something? If you feel strongly enough about something, you need to find out what you can do about it to change the situation. May work straight away, may work years down the road, may never work... at least you will have tried.
_____________________________
Stovie, Stovie, what am I going to do with you!
Maggie
September 09
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Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/15/2009 7:39:37 PM
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pink..
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
I'm not talking about people who are a threat to themselves or others. Nor am I. You don't have to be a danger to yourself or others to be really ill.
Will you define what you mean by really ill please?
Is medication really the safest route?
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The American governement is not quick to change things like that unless they see a way to make a buck out of it. And this is reason to not do something? If you feel strongly enough about something, you need to find out what you can do about it to change the situation. May work straight away, may work years down the road, may never work... at least you will have tried.
Not I.
_____________________________
Gratitude is a vaccine, an antitoxin and an antiseptic.
~ John Henry Jowett
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/15/2009 7:51:43 PM
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agapetos
Posts: 9875
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: This side of the lil duck pond!
Status: offline
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quote:
Will you define what you mean by really ill please? I believe that being suicidal is not the worst a person can be, that there is a stage beyond that where a person doesn't have the energy to even try to attempt suicide.
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Is medication really the safest route? What are the alternatives? I could have gone into hospital, but my health care workers know that I would probably be better off at home with someone checking on me regularly (here we have a crisis team who will visit daily if necessary). That's not always an option in the US where people may be faced with huge medical bills for a stay in hospital.
If a person is determined to commit suicide, they will do it unless under 24-hour supervision, which is pretty impossible and will probably stress someone out even more than they are already stressed out.
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Stovie, Stovie, what am I going to do with you!
Maggie
September 09
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