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[Poll]
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To Circ or Not To Circ
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| We did circumcise |
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| We will circumcise |
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| We didn't circumcise |
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| We won't circumcise |
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| We are split on our decision |
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| We have not even talked about it.... |
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| What is circumcision? |
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| Did circ and regret it... |
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| didn't circ and regret it... |
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Total Votes : 113
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(last vote on : 7/26/2008 9:11:01 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 3:12:36 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
None, though I am sure I could Google and find something to counter with. I have no studies, nothing but personal opinion, empty rhetoric, guesses, and assumptions.
Well, you said it, not me. 
On the other points...
*it was not a rushed decision for us. It was well thought out, and long considered
*we did attend the procedure. Dh stood looking over the doctors shoulder to make sure it was done right.
*my husband is not American and probably 99% of the men in his nation are circumcised, and it is very common in Africa, from whence he cometh. I really question your 90% figure. Do you have a back-up for that one?
quote:
The fact that God did not require circumcision of new Gentile converts to Christianity in the NT leads me to believe that the command was only for a time and for a specific people. God knew the Jews would be going through a lot of difficult circumstances (wandering for 40 years) where cleanliness would be impossible. Also as Earthless mentioned, it was to make them different, set apart, and as an exercise in obedience.
I think this is a perfectly fine argument. I only want to know if those who are so passionate against circumcision to the point of calling it barbaric and mutliation consider God a barbaric mutilator for commanding it. 
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 3:14:18 PM
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earthless
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God's ways can, at times, indeed seem nonsensical to us, barbaric, etc..
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 3:17:12 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3632
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
God's ways can, at times, indeed seem nonsensical to us, barbaric, etc..
Our son is circ'ed, but what you've said is true. God often commanded the children of Israel's enemies to be murdered, and in today's world, while children are tragically killed in a war, we would never consent to the deliberate slaughter of little children.
ETA: And if woman was raped, she was either stoned to death for not making enough noise to draw people's attention, or she had to marry her rapist. But even such a distasteful law did have it's reasons.
Obviously, I am not comparing circumcision with the murder of children, just pointing out that in the OT, God often did seem extremely barbaric, even though He had His reasons.
< Message edited by Sideways -- 4/9/2008 3:28:39 PM >
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 3:24:00 PM
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JoyfulWife
Posts: 233
Joined: 5/3/2005
From: The South
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quote:
I think this is a perfectly fine argument. I only want to know if those who are so passionate against circumcision to the point of calling it barbaric and mutliation consider God a barbaric mutilator for commanding it.
Oh, I'm not passionately against it. My quote you used was in response to the post saying people should circ because God had a good reason (health). I was just pointing out that if that were completely true, He would have wanted Gentiles to do it too. But He didn't.
I do think circumcision to be terribly painful for a baby. The numbing cream they use doesn't always work, and the injected anesthetic seems just as bad. Does requiring circumcision of the Jewish people make God barbaric? No - but He doesn't always call people to do things that are pleasant or that make us happy. He does things to make us holy. He does things that are for our own good. For the Jews, He chose circumcision at the time to accomplish that. Just because God loves us, doesn't mean we won't have to go through painful things sometime for Him to accomplish His purposes. That's as true then as it is now.
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It is well, it is well, with my soul.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 3:47:00 PM
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JoyfulWife
Posts: 233
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From: The South
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: JoyfulWife
Would it be hard for an intact male to keep clean on a trip like that, or would it be okay with the nightly sponge bath?
He will be more than OK. 
Good!! I'll tell my husband that - that was his biggest worry after all our research. He didn't want our son (if we have one, that is) to miss out on the fun of camping or backpacking trips or be angry about the difficulty of going on them because of keeping clean (that is, of course, if our future son even likes backpacking!)
We are really hoping our kids will love backpacking because we've always hoped to go on an extended trip (a month or so) once they are pre-teen, teenage years. That is WAY in the future though.
_____________________________
Whatever my lot, Thou hast taught me to say,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 5:39:11 PM
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JoyfulWife
Posts: 233
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From: The South
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quote:
just saying that you can't exactly rely on "scientific evidence" when they aren't exactly up to par with God and His divine wisdom. Obviously there is a reason God created the male body to naturally produce more Vit K on the 8th day then it ever will again in that person's lifetime.
I completely understand where you are coming from. My question is just, why wouldn't God continue to command it of all believers if it is the best and there is a really good reason to do it? It just seems like if that were completely true, then God would have commanded all His followers to circumcise when Paul was presented with the issue in the NT. My logic was that it must not benefit/disadvantage that much since God says both ways are fine in the NT.
quote:
I can not really comment on the "intact male" part of that, but my hubby is in the Army and often in situations where he can not exactly keep clean....such as spending months in Iraq or Kuwait where showers didn't exactly get you clean, etc. One of the things the Army is big on though is keeping clean...and any field exercise or deployment etc they have to have baby wipes with them. So I would say just make sure you have those with you wherever you go. My hubby is circ'd, but there are plenty in the Army that aren't...and they just all use wipes to keep cleanliness not really an issue for them.
Thanks - I hadn't thought of baby wipes, but that's a really great idea! As I was thinking about things this afternoon, the thought of what about military situations where you are in areas where there isn't access to showers popped into my mind, so it was funny you mentioned that! 
_____________________________
Whatever my lot, Thou hast taught me to say,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 4/9/2008 8:31:49 PM
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TammyIsBlessed
Posts: 1639
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The horrible heel blood tests they do are far more painful. Especially in my sons case. The nurse said she'd never had so much trouble getting blood from a baby before - he screamed so loud, the poor guy. 
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/10/2008 3:26:20 PM
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HomeSpunLady
Posts: 1264
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Ok, so I don't know if I need to say this again, I'm glad I was taken to this thread though, what are the medical necessity reasons for being circ'ed? And who has had a boy that they didn't circ and then later needed to be?
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 6:46:23 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4073
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JoyfulWife
My question is just, why wouldn't God continue to command it of all believers if it is the best and there is a really good reason to do it? It just seems like if that were completely true, then God would have commanded all His followers to circumcise when Paul was presented with the issue in the NT. My logic was that it must not benefit/disadvantage that much since God says both ways are fine in the NT. Circumcision is/was a covenantal sign, specifically the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. As gentile believers, we do not related to God based on those covenants but on the basis of the New Covenant with a different covenantal sign: baptism.
Paul emphasizes that in Galations where he writes that anyone who recieves circumcision (which is the last step in formal Jewish conversion) in the flesh obligates themselves to the Law of Moses (Gal 5.3) which is something I think most gentile believers do not want to foist upon their children.
There is no medical benefit from the procedure, in fact it can have a negative impact on the nerves of that sensitive area if done incorrectly (too tightly). The reason it was started here in the US back in the 1800s - to decrease sexual sensitivity, presumably minimizing the urge for young men to masturbate. (BTW, the same reason the breakfast cereal industry started)
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 7:08:50 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
Posts: 2509
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quote:
The reason it was started here in the US back in the 1800s - to decrease sexual sensitivity, presumably minimizing the urge for young men to masturbate. (BTW, the same reason the breakfast cereal industry started)
Just because someone in the 1800's *thought* it would prevent masturbation doesn't mean it actually does decrease sensitivity. Lots of people have had lots of really, really silly ideas throughout the ages.  Or do I need to be stocking up on Special K, too, for when my boys are older?
quote:
There is no medical benefit from the procedure,
There are medical professionals on both sides of the issue.
quote:
Paul emphasizes that in Galations where he writes that anyone who recieves circumcision (which is the last step in formal Jewish conversion) in the flesh obligates themselves to the Law of Moses (Gal 5.3) which is something I think most gentile believers do not want to foist upon their children.
So, if it is done for medical reasons (real or percieved) or cultural reasons with absolutely no spiritual basis, do you still believe that the circumcised are "under the Law"? What about intent of the heart, and all that?
We didn't circ our sons for spiritual reasons, or to keep any law or command, or anything like that.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 8:00:17 AM
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DaveW
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No - in most guys it does not lessen sensitivity. In some, it does a lot. It all depends on where those nerves happen to be. If they are close to the surface and the surgery cuts too tightly, they can be damaged or even severed.
As to silly ideas, you should look thru the archives of the "anti-masturbation" devices patented during last half of the 19th century. It is the stuff of serious horror movies.
No - I do not think that a medical procedure done on an infant necessarily carries spiritual significance unless the parents' intent was there. But that is only my opinion.
Actually, stock up on corn flakes and graham crackers; Drs Kellogg's and Graham's inventions.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 8:07:52 AM
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Sideways
Posts: 3632
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HomeSpunLady
Ok, so I don't know if I need to say this again, I'm glad I was taken to this thread though, what are the medical necessity reasons for being circ'ed? And who has had a boy that they didn't circ and then later needed to be?
My doctor flat out told us there was no reason to circ, just as long as we taught our son proper hygiene. And let's face it, your daughter can get infections there too, but I'm sure you've taught her how to clean herself.
And the reduced sensitivity stuff does have some basis in fact; though I don't have the proper equipment to judge for myself.
My MIL is a teacher of 4th graders, and she's had one student that she knows of have a late circ, because he was not taught to clean himself. That being said, my husband did circ our son for purely cultural reasons. He was very torn about it, though.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 11:07:43 AM
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HomeSpunLady
Posts: 1264
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Lovely Pennsylvania!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: HomeSpunLady
Ok, so I don't know if I need to say this again, I'm glad I was taken to this thread though, what are the medical necessity reasons for being circ'ed? And who has had a boy that they didn't circ and then later needed to be?
My doctor flat out told us there was no reason to circ, just as long as we taught our son proper hygiene. And let's face it, your daughter can get infections there too, but I'm sure you've taught her how to clean herself.
And the reduced sensitivity stuff does have some basis in fact; though I don't have the proper equipment to judge for myself.
My MIL is a teacher of 4th graders, and she's had one student that she knows of have a late circ, because he was not taught to clean himself. That being said, my husband did circ our son for purely cultural reasons. He was very torn about it, though.
Well and that's my thought, do we simply hack off an appendage just because boys are thought to be more dirty? We have taught Nadia from the beginning not to put anything in there and at diaper changes when there is bm in there we have to dig to get it out. She's learned that while yes, that hurts, if we let it in there she will get bigger owies and it's better to clean it out now, rather than get sick later. Why can't boys be taught the same thing? I've had UTI's, should I get the area sewn shut? Of course not, I practice better hygiene since those incidents and I don't have anymore problems.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 11:17:32 AM
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manda59
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Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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My ds is not circumcised and has not has a single infection during his nearly 19 years. In the early days, months and years, the area is self-cleaning. When our ds was about 4, we taught him how to clean himself whilst in the bath. That's it. No problems. Nor has my dh (who is 52) who is also uncircumcised, like the vast majority of males in the UK.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 11:38:19 AM
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Sideways
Posts: 3632
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One thing more. My husband was allowed to view the procedure, and he was very happy with the OB who did it. But afterwards it was hospital policy that the baby be observed in the nursery for 30 minutes. Nathan cried most of the time.
I wasn't allowed in, and he wasn't allowed out. They called and asked me if they could give him formula to sooth him. I caved (because I wasn't allowed access to him to nurse for those 30 minutes), and he was still crying when they brought him into the room. He nursed for almost 40 minutes (the only time he's ever done that), then crashed out on my chest.
I had mixed feelings before he was born, but I was really hoping dH would change his mind once Nathan was born. It was awful. If this one is a boy, I'm guessing hubby will decide to circ again, but I'm not gonna like it.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 1:00:10 PM
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cynthia
Posts: 7995
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From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
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I am reading a lot about cleaning the area, but in small boys, that is what creates problems. The foreskin should never be pulled back by parents, ever. It is supposed to be attached, like a fingernail is attached to the nail bed. When the boy gets older, around when he is potty trained, he will naturally pull it back himself, as it is loosening and will eventually be ready to detach. Before potty training, however, it is not read to detach and doing so can cause serious harm that may result in a need for circumcision. It is bad for a parent to try to clean under the foreskin. When parents do that, their uncircumcised boys are much more likely to have problems. When they leave it alone, he is much less likely to have trouble. When the boy is old enough to bathe himself, he should clean gently under it, but other than that, it ought to be left alone.
My son is almost nine. He has not had any trouble, because we never pulled it back. He is the only one that has done that, as he has been instructed for bath time.
The foreskin in meant to protect the penis. It has natural oils that protect it. This is not dirty. It is a protective barrier. Other parts of both male and female bodies produce bodily fluids to protect those body parts. That doesn’t make them dirty. We normally like to clean off the excess, like with our ears and so forth, but the reason for the production of fluids is to keep the person healthy.
I see no point in circumcising and could not imagine having done that to my son. It was a sign that the Lord gave to the Jewish people before Christ. It is no longer applicable for today and unless it became medically necessary later, I see no point in it. Circumcising as a preventative measure seems a poor reason. If any problem should arise in the future, the foreskin could be removed at that time. However, the possibility of this happening is remote. The main problem that people see with not circumcising their boys is when they push the foreskin back. Many doctors have given that erroneous advice to the detriment of the child. That alone is the main reason why uncircumcised boys have trouble. The foreskin is not meant to detach until the boys have grown and it naturally begins to loosen. When it is messed with previous to that stage, it causes damage that cannot be corrected. That is why so many boys had trouble.
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RE: To Circ or Not To Circ - 7/11/2008 1:05:44 PM
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cynthia
Posts: 7995
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
Status: online
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Ryanne, I would ask the parents if they all got the same advice to push the foreskin back during diaper changes. That used to be the standard advice and the source of most problems. I'm also wondering if those UTI problems were completely resolved by circumcision or if the problem could have been related to something else.
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