|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
james vs matthew, does God tempt us - 8/14/2008 2:03:02 PM
|
|
|
john_mark
Posts: 527
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
|
james 1 says this
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
this seems straight forward and easily understood. but compare this to two statements in matthew
matt 4:1
1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil
is there a differnce here between james and matthew. are we to say that while God led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted, it was the devil who actually did the tempting? somehow that doesnt seem to fit with james
consider also this from matthew 6
9 "Pray, then, in this way: `Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 `Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11 `Give us this day our daily bread. 12 `And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 `And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
i have heard this explained as a double negative, that the focus of the request is to be delivered from evil and that the lead us not into temptation is just expressing that thought in a negative manner.
i dont know, just trying to understand a way to reconcile these passages.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: james vs matthew, does God tempt us - 8/14/2008 2:11:41 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 2451
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
This is very explicit. God does not tempt us. He has no need because He knows what we will choose.
quote:
matt 4:1
1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil
God is not tempting Jesus here. He is allowing the temptation, and He knows that Jesus will not fail.
quote:
9 "Pray, then, in this way: `Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 `Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11 `Give us this day our daily bread. 12 `And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 `And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
As followers of Christ, we should be led by the Holy Spirit everyday. My perspective on this has been that we are praying that God protects us from temptation by steering us on a safer course or by keeping satan from being effective with temptation.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: james vs matthew, does God tempt us - 8/14/2008 3:31:13 PM
|
|
|
sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3776
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: online
|
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James tells us that God does not tempt us. He does allow us to be tempted.
Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Matthew tells us that satan does. Jesus gives us the example of how to respond to temptation. Note that Jesus responded by quoting scripture. The word of God is listed as the only offensive weapon in the armor of God. (Ephesians 6:13-18) the rest are defense.
Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
This could mean not to allow us to be tempted but it could also mean not to allow us to give in to temptation.
You might also want to read Job. satan couldn't do anything to Job without the Lord's permission.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
|
|
|
|
|
RE: james vs matthew, does God tempt us - 8/14/2008 3:54:46 PM
|
|
|
john_mark
Posts: 527
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: sparkleingsnow
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James tells us that God does not tempt us. He does allow us to be tempted.
Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Matthew tells us that satan does. Jesus gives us the example of how to respond to temptation. Note that Jesus responded by quoting scripture. The word of God is listed as the only offensive weapon in the armor of God. (Ephesians 6:13-18) the rest are defense.
Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
This could mean not to allow us to be tempted but it could also mean not to allow us to give in to temptation.
You might also want to read Job. satan couldn't do anything to Job without the Lord's permission.
i am mediatating on this and here is where my concern is with matt 4:1
while we can say that it was satan that did the tempting, the verse tells us that Jesus was taken to the wilderness for the purpose of testing/tempting. he was taken there for that purpose by God. if i can use an anology, if i drive someone to the bank so they can rob the bank(knowing in advance that was their intention) but wait in the car while they rob it, are you saying that i am not giulty of participating in the robbery because i sat in the car?
that is what i see as your agrument for matt4, God may have led Jesus there for the purpose of testing Him, but God Himself was not involved.
Job seems to add more confusion since as you say "satan couldn't do anything to Job without the Lord's permission", so God's permission was necessary for the tempting of Job.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: james vs matthew, does God tempt us - 8/14/2008 4:38:23 PM
|
|
|
wreid77
Posts: 26
Joined: 4/25/2007
Status: offline
|
I understand what you are asking, but I think that your analogy is flawed.
Both of the responses above use the best possible scriptural responses that I could think of.
The main thing to remember is that God will allow you to be tempted.
Temptation comes both from our own degenerate self and from Satan.
When God does allow Satan to tempt us he does so much for the same purpose that ancient Japanese sword smiths tested their swords in the body dumps outside of town.
It is for testing and refining our spiritual metal.
God knew Job, he knew he would not fall to the temptation. How much stronger in his faith in God do you think Job came out of that time of Trial. Satan attacked him, his family, his finances and brought all of his friends and his wife after him in an attempt to force him to curse God.
We often fail, but being broken is also part of the forging and temperin processess.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: james vs matthew, does God tempt us - 8/14/2008 5:00:50 PM
|
|
|
john_mark
Posts: 527
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
|
i understand what all of you have posted and agree that nothing can happen unless God allows it.
my condrum in matt4:1 is that the verse seems to say that God led Jesus into the wilderness specifically so He could be tempted. the verse does not seem to allow for an idea that God led Jesus into the wilderness and while Jesus was there God then allowed satan the permission to tempt Jesus. there is a difference between the two ideas.
as i think about this maybe james is getting at the idea that the temptation to sin, or the desire to sin comes from within ourselves, that we cannot say that God compelled or willed our sin. so for example when scripture says that God hardened pharoah's heart, it wasnt that God compelled or willed pharoah's sin, the origin of the sin was pharoah's own heart.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: james vs matthew, does God tempt us - 8/14/2008 5:20:45 PM
|
|
|
sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3776
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: online
|
That example doesn't work for me. The driver of the car on the way to the bank knows that he is taking part in doing something wrong. God can not sin.
But Jesus Himself said shouldn't He fufill all thing that the Father had for Him to do.
Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Jesus can have compassion for our suffering, for He too was tempted.
So we can see where God had a good purpose for allowing Jesus to be tempted, and to overcome all sin.
Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
succour according to Stong's means to aid or relieve, help.
1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
And God is merciful in that He won't allow us to be temped beyond what we can stand.
1 Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
God doesn't tempt, but He does allow us to be temped for our good, and His purpose, some of which we can understand and some I'm sure we aren't able to understand while we are here on earth.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
|
|
|
|
|
RE: james vs matthew, does God tempt us - 8/14/2008 5:28:26 PM
|
|
|
john_mark
Posts: 527
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
|
i appericiate all the responses from everyone
perhaps it is best to get back to matt 4:1 and leave anaologies behind
1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
this verse seems to say in my understanding that Jesus was led by God in the wilderness for the express purpose of being tempted/tested by satan.
is there a different way to understand this verse?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: james vs matthew, does God tempt us - 8/14/2008 5:30:16 PM
|
|
|
sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3776
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: online
|
quote:
Original: john_mark
my condrum in matt4:1 is that the verse seems to say that God led Jesus into the wilderness specifically so He could be tempted. the verse does not seem to allow for an idea that God led Jesus into the wilderness and while Jesus was there God then allowed satan the permission to tempt Jesus. there is a difference between the two ideas.
Yes, it does say that Jesus was led into the wilderness to be tempted (tested). God knows all and He know why Jesus was taken there. I guess I don't understand what you are trying to say with God took Him there and then allowed Him to be tested.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
|
|
|
|
|
RE: james vs matthew, does God tempt us - 8/14/2008 5:33:26 PM
|
|
|
sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3776
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: online
|
quote:
is there a different way to understand this verse?
Not that I know of.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
|
|
|
|
|
RE: james vs matthew, does God tempt us - 8/14/2008 5:41:03 PM
|
|
|
john_mark
Posts: 527
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: sparkleingsnow
quote:
Original: john_mark
my condrum in matt4:1 is that the verse seems to say that God led Jesus into the wilderness specifically so He could be tempted. the verse does not seem to allow for an idea that God led Jesus into the wilderness and while Jesus was there God then allowed satan the permission to tempt Jesus. there is a difference between the two ideas.
Yes, it does say that Jesus was led into the wilderness to be tempted (tested). God knows all and He know why Jesus was taken there. I guess I don't understand what you are trying to say with God took Him there and then allowed Him to be tested.
let me try an expound a little
james 1
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone
matt 4:1 we agree says that God led Jesus into the wilderness for the purpose of testing Him.
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
unlike Job in which one might argue that the tempting of Job was initiated by satan, in matt 4:1 the intiator of the tempting seems to be God in that matthew seems to indicate that God led Jesus to the wilderness because God wanted Jesus to be tempted by satan. if that is true compare that to the bolded portion of james 1.
matt 4 doesnt seem to present the idea that satan came and ask for permission for the tempting as in the case of job
|
|
|
|
|
RE: james vs matthew, does God tempt us - 8/14/2008 5:52:05 PM
|
|
|
sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3776
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: online
|
I agree with you in all you said in the above post about Matthew 4:1 and about Job.
I guess I don't see any conflict with James. Just because God allowed Jesus to be temped and it was accoring to His purpose, doesn't equal Him doing the tempting. James 1 just says that He Himself does not tempt anyone. Allowing something and doing something are two different things. I see no coflict between the two.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
|
|
|
|
|
RE: james vs matthew, does God tempt us - 8/15/2008 1:15:20 PM
|
|
|
steve7150
Posts: 215
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
13 `And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Good question, the answer may be that Jesus used hebrew parallelism as was often used in the OT which repeats a thought for emphasis or clarity.
"but deliver us from evil" may be the modifier of the first part, to really mean a request to deliver us through temptation when it comes, not from God but from the Evil One.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
