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Why do we need a Pope? - 4/11/2005 1:54:53 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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This topic is neverending. So as to help keep things from constantly being repeated or asked we've decided to create a perpetual discussion on the topic.
The Pope is held in high esteem and is considered by some as the representation of Christ on earth.
Discuss the differences in this doctrine.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 1:39:14 AM
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bishop35
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The importance of the Pope is rather redundant. We dont need anyone to talk to God for us, we have Jesus now for that
and the funny thing is, we had Jesus before we had a Pope.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 9:49:02 AM
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Lurker
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We need one because Jesus appointed one!
Matthew 16:18: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church."
Peter of course, being the greek word for rock. Here we have Jesus saying "You are rock, and upon this rock I will build my Church."
Now I'm sure that someone will try to use the old argument about Petras/Petros. But do keep in mind, Jesus was speaking aramaic at the time, in which there is no difference between "small stone" and "rock" like Greek. In Aramaic, "rock" is translated to "Kepha" which is of course what Peter was referred to several times in the Scriptures (four times in Galatians and four times in 1 Corinthians btw). Note the reference to "Cephas" there. That would be the Greek transliteration of "Kephas"
So, we have Jesus appointing Peter/Cephas to be the rock that He will build His Church on.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 11:57:52 AM
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Lurker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
I heard that they found Peter's body buried in Jeruselem and not Rome. In fact, I read an article that made a case for the fact that no evidence is founf that Peter EVER went to Rome. Paul maybe; Peter...no. Anyone know of this article?
Well, we know that Peter went to Rome since he wrote about it in his letters.
“The Church here in Babylon, united with you by God’s election, sends you her greeting, and so does my son, Mark” (1 Pet. 5:13)
Back then, the Romans were persecuting Christians pretty heavily. Letters would often have to use code words for places to reduce the chance of the writers being found if the message was intercepted. The code word for the city of Rome was "Babylon" due to the fact that the Jewish people readily recognized Babylon as being a place of great persecution. The real Babylon at that time was pretty much in ruins due to military defeats and conquests.
The fact that Peter was in Rome is mentioned several times by the early Church fathers as matters of fact as well.
I'll post references if you'd like when I have more time...
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 1:15:55 PM
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emjayzee
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"We" don't need a pope. Roman Catholics feel they need a pope, so they have one. I don't need a pope, so I don't have one.
More importantly, why do they call him the Holy Father? Why do they call priests father? I have many brothersa and sisters in Christ, but only one Father. If that is not direct, blatant disregard for scripture, I don't know what is.
Matt 23
8 But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 2:35:58 PM
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bettyg51
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Perhaps you don't need a pope because you are one. You decide what Scripture means and how to live it, I guess. 
Call no one father? Take a look at these:
Lk 16:24 (Father Abraham), Rom 4 (Abraham the father of the circumcised); 1 Cor 4:14-15 (Paul "I became your father through the gospel."); Acts 7:2 (To this he replied: “Brothers and fathers, listen to me!); 1 Thess 2:11 (like a father with his children, we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you...)
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 2:42:07 PM
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Lurker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
Well first I'd like to know how you know that Rome was coded as Babylon???
Sure. It's referenced several times in the writings of the early Church fathers actually. :)
Tertullian, in The Demurrer Against the Heretics (A.D. 200), noted of Rome, “How happy is that church . . . where Peter endured a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned in a death like John’s"
We know that Paul was beheaded in Rome, the implication here is quite clear, that the church Peter was at is the same one Paul was at. Rome. Tertullian later writes of how Peter ordained Clement (who later went on to become the 4th pope) in Rome. Clement himself wrote a letter to the Romans and referenced Peter's life ending where Paul met his life's end. This was around 70AD.
A later chronicler of Church history, Eusebius Pamphilius, writing around A.D. 303, noted that “It is said that Peter’s first epistle, in which he makes mention of Mark, was composed at Rome itself; and that he himself indicates this, referring to the city figuratively as Babylon.”
But there's plenty of other evidence from the early Church fathers. :)
Ignatius of Antioch wrote a Letter to the Romans around 110AD where he lamented that he could not command the Roman Christians like Peter and Paul. Of course, that comment only really makes sense if we believe that Peter was a leader of the church in Rome.
Iraneus writes to us in 190AD with his work, Against Heresies and tells how Matthew wrote his gospel “while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church.” Later he even mentions how Linus (mentioned in 2 Tim. 4:21 btw) was appointed as Peter's successor. Later followed by Anacletus (sometimes called just Cletus) and Clement.
So it would seem that the early Church Fathers recognized Peter's Roman residency. And it's actually said outright by Eusebius that Rome was figuratively called Babylon!
The early Church Fathers speak to us even today. They were united in their belief that Peter lived and died in Rome. And these are the men who were taught directly by some of the apostles and their followers!
I think the case for Peter being in Rome is pretty strong, and the idea that Babylon was a code word for Rome would seem to follow.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 2:46:13 PM
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GoodME
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emjayzee
"We" don't need a pope. Roman Catholics feel they need a pope, so they have one. I don't need a pope, so I don't have one.
More importantly, why do they call him the Holy Father? Why do they call priests father? I have many brothersa and sisters in Christ, but only one Father. If that is not direct, blatant disregard for scripture, I don't know what is.
Matt 23
8 But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
I guess we have been folded into a "new" community and need to start this discussion all over again from the "old" thread. Should be fun. Hi Lurker, Sadie, StJVMan et. al. What do you guys think of the new "skin" here?
I will echo the previous sentiment. You don't need a Pope, because you ARE your Pope. This is how your Faith works - that you may discern and create your own doctrine based on your own reading of Scriptures. The problem with this practice is that your Faith is now limited on your own personal resources and abilities in regards to ths task. In addition, how do you know that your discernment is in agreement with your fellow discerners? If there is a quarrel, who is "right"?
What is Scriptural is to assent to the authority of a Church. A Church decided which Books to be included in the NT (under the guidance and watchful eye of the Holy Spirit, of course) as an example, but the authority of Church is why you are not formulating your Faith from the Gospel of Thomas and you are from the Gospel of John.
Catholics simply assent to this authority in Church completely, rather than partially. The Pontiff occupies the office that is the person at the head of this institution. Church is not some abstraction then, but a living, breathing entity made up of the Body of Faithful and the people within that Body that administrate it.
< Message edited by GoodME -- 4/12/2005 4:10:04 PM >
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 4:17:16 PM
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Jb_Ca
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quote:
We need one because Jesus appointed one!
Matthew 16:18: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church."
Peter of course, being the greek word for rock. Here we have Jesus saying "You are rock, and upon this rock I will build my Church."
Continually we are told that Christ is the rock. Furthermore, Matthew 16:18 does show us Peter's importance as leadership in the church - yet as he never acts as a pope, nor do the Apostles appear to recognize such authority, you are stressed to say that we should.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 4:19:32 PM
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Jb_Ca
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quote:
You don't need a Pope, because you ARE your Pope. This is how your Faith works - that you may discern and create your own doctrine based on your own reading of Scriptures. The problem with this practice is that your Faith is now limited on your own personal resources and abilities in regards to ths task. In addition, how do you know that your discernment is in agreement with your fellow discerners? If there is a quarrel, who is "right"?
GoodME; as you claim that the Spirit leads the pope and such to make the decisions, I argue that the Holy Spirit is able to teach us all things - as is supported in scripture.
As has been shown in the past - the church is full of corruption. From the financial scandals to the killing of those who do not follow beliefs from the most recent scandals of abuse.
quote:
What is Scriptural is to assent to the authority of a Church. A Church decided which Books to be included in the NT (under the guidance and watchful eye of the Holy Spirit, of course) as an example, but the authority of Church is why you are not formulating your Faith from the Gospel of Thomas and you are from the Gospel of John .
What Church, GoodME?
God gave the world the Bible - not any particular church. The concept of a group of men deciding what books are to be included in the word of God is unBiblical.
God bless
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 4:20:38 PM
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Lurker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jb_Ca
quote:
We need one because Jesus appointed one!
Matthew 16:18: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church."
Peter of course, being the greek word for rock. Here we have Jesus saying "You are rock, and upon this rock I will build my Church."
Continually we are told that Christ is the rock. Furthermore, Matthew 16:18 does show us Peter's importance as leadership in the church - yet as he never acts as a pope, nor do the Apostles appear to recognize such authority, you are stressed to say that we should.
And yet when Jesus Himself says that Peter is the Rock, you disagree?
O_o
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 4:22:24 PM
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Jb_Ca
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quote:
And yet when Jesus Himself says that Peter is the Rock, you disagree?
Obviously not, as I state: "Matthew 16:18 does show us Peter's importance as leadership in the church".
I disagree with your interpretation of the verse; your application of such.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 4:25:33 PM
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emjayzee
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Woah. I never got into this on the old forum cause there were too many posts to go through, but I thought I'd jump in on this new one. I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic school all my life and was told all the things Catholics believe with little or no scriptural basis given. We studied catechism, recited creeds, all that good stuff, but ask why we were actually supposed to believe something it was because that was "what the church teaches". I know whereof I speak, trust me.
I have not heard this "you ARE your Pope" thing before. That's kind of funny. If you are saying that I read the Bible, study, pray, and apply it to my life, well, ok, I guess you can call me that. But if you are using the term "pope" to mean bishop, elder, pastor, shepherd, or some other similar meaning, then you are wrong. I belong to a congregation which follows the structure laid out in 1Tim3. Our spiritual guidance falls to the elders.
When did Jesus ever refer to the church as an institution?
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 4:48:33 PM
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bishop35
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The teaching and example of Jesus leads me to beleive that we do not need someone eles to talk to God for us. Jesus told Peter that upon this rock I build my church? Why does that mean that Jesus ordained a postion that would need to be perpetually filled until his second coming? Wouldnt it mean that Peter was the founder of the church, or a founder of the church?
We are taught to have a personal repationship with Jesus. How does the pope fit into that? If we had to include the pope here, it would mess up what Jesus taught concerning us and Him. The Pope is unnessessary. The only way to heaven, to God, is the Son, Jesus Christ. He is our advocate before the Father. Not a man, born into sin like us, appointed, or voted to a position of power.
_____________________________
So brave knights, if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for death awaits you all........with nasty, big, pointy teeth!!!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 4:55:48 PM
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emjayzee
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Amen, Bishop35!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 5:40:18 PM
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GoodME
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bishop35
The teaching and example of Jesus leads me to beleive that we do not need someone eles to talk to God for us. Catholics don't believe this nonsense either - the Pope does not "talk to God for me". Jesus told Peter that upon this rock I build my church? Why does that mean that Jesus ordained a postion that would need to be perpetually filled until his second coming? Wouldnt it mean that Peter was the founder of the church, or a founder of the church? No, the Church was founded at Pentecost, wherein the Apostles were charged with "spreading the Good News". THis mission IS Church (there is a question about "institution" in another post - and yes, Christ did institute this)
We are taught to have a personal relationship with Jesus. Actually with God, as exampled by Jesus. How does the pope fit into that? The Pope is the office that is the head of the Church - the CHurch that instructs us in our Faith and its practice - instructs us on the Faith that IS BEING revealed to us by God through Church. If we had to include the pope here, it would mess up what Jesus taught concerning us and Him. How? My interpretation here is that you do not understand who the Pope is and what he does. The Pope is unnessessary. No, it is as I said before - if you discern and define your Faith for yourself - you are Pope. If you assent to the teachings shared by a congregation, then whoever has discerned those teachings into doctrine is your Pope. If you are a Roman Catholic and assent to the authority of this Church - the Bishop of Rome and Pontiff is you Pope. The only way to heaven, to God, is the Son, Jesus Christ. He is our advocate before the Father. Amen - Catholics believe this as well (maybe there is hope for us after all....). The way being by Jesus's instruction, example and death and resurrection. Not a man, born into sin like us, appointed, or voted to a position of power. Please. Again - clearly not understanding here the Pope, what this office is, what it does, etc. Everybody is going to get some insight into this over the next few weeks, so tune in to CNN and pay attention....
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 6:41:35 PM
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sadiebelle
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
I guess we have been folded into a "new" community and need to start this discussion all over again from the "old" thread. Should be fun. Hi Lurker, Sadie, StJVMan et. al. What do you guys think of the new "skin" here?
What up GoodMe?? Cool avatar and good to see you are present and accounted for, now I can breathe! *wink*
Lurker, you said:
quote:
So it would seem that the early Church Fathers recognized Peter's Roman residency. And it's actually said outright by Eusebius that Rome was figuratively called Babylon!
The early Church Fathers speak to us even today. They were united in their belief that Peter lived and died in Rome. And these are the men who were taught directly by some of the apostles and their followers!
I see that you get the Babylon thing from Church fathers...is there Scriptural backing for this theory as well?
_____________________________
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Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart O take and seal it, seal it for Thy courts above ~ Come Thou Fount
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 8:04:35 PM
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bishop35
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Goodme,
O.k.-but what is the purpose of the pope, if he is nessessary? This is new to me. I never looked into the whole pope thing. If I am pope to me, then why do we need an actual pope? If I can yalk to God myself, what do I, personally need him for? To me he's always been some dude that traveled a lot and blessed people all over. That is very nice, but isnt that what all of us are supose to be doing anyway? He has the benefit of money from titheing to finance his trips. I dont. Nor you either, I assume? I am sure if the church would pay for it, you and I both would travel and witness.
Plus, he speaks in latin. How many people around the world can speak and understand that? He could be sayin anything he wants, and the interpreters could just say what we want to hear. (I know this is far out there, but even to just listen to him bores me, and I turn the channel. Jrsus is cool to us, because we can get personal with him. How are we supose tp get personal with a closed off older guy, that cant even speak to me?
I know some of my questions may irritate you, but keep in mind, I dont know anything really about the whole pope thing. We agree that Jesus is the only way to heaven. That is good. I beleive that Jesus told us to confess our sins to him, and only he could forgive sins. This is one of the things that the pharasees got mad at him about. Why do catholics need to confess to anyone other than Jesus?
My biggest question is just this, What is the pope for? What is his job? What is his purpose? I dont see what the big deal is. 
_____________________________
So brave knights, if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for death awaits you all........with nasty, big, pointy teeth!!!
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 9:06:03 PM
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TimL
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Hi Sadie,
Is it really blue in here or is it just me? Anyway, I have no idea where to start here in this blue world. Maybe you can just start us off if you want.
May God Continue to Bless You Sadie, Tim
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 9:16:59 PM
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Andy M
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bishop35
My biggest question is just this, What is the pope for? What is his job? What is his purpose? I dont see what the big deal is.
What is his job? Are you serious? He runs the 1 billion member Catholic Church...every aspect of the Church.
_____________________________
Gloria in Excelsis Deo
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/12/2005 9:38:41 PM
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DaddyLarry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emjayzee
Woah. I never got into this on the old forum cause there were too many posts to go through, but I thought I'd jump in on this new one. I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic school all my life and was told all the things Catholics believe with little or no scriptural basis given. We studied catechism, recited creeds, all that good stuff, but ask why we were actually supposed to believe something it was because that was "what the church teaches". I know whereof I speak, trust me.
I have not heard this "you ARE your Pope" thing before. That's kind of funny. If you are saying that I read the Bible, study, pray, and apply it to my life, well, ok, I guess you can call me that. But if you are using the term "pope" to mean bishop, elder, pastor, shepherd, or some other similar meaning, then you are wrong. I belong to a congregation which follows the structure laid out in 1Tim3. Our spiritual guidance falls to the elders.
When did Jesus ever refer to the church as an institution?
From where did your elders get their authority? Did they ordain themselves or were they ordained by majority vote? What evidence do you have that their Biblical interpretations are correct?
_____________________________
That they all may be one.
Larry
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/13/2005 12:25:13 AM
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bishop35
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Wow andym, you sure cleared that up for me!
I've gone to church my whole life, I was saved by the blood of Jesus who died for me and I accept, studied his word and teachings, was babtized, but in all that, nobody ever told me about this. So a guy surrounded in so many cult symbols, that I am supose to confess my sins to, and he'll talk to God for me, wasnt importantant enough for anyone to tell me about him and his role as my spiritual leader? Something dont add up here. I trust my Lord to reveal the things I need to know about him and what he wants from me. He didnt bother to fill me in on this guy either. But you condinsend on me? How funny
Were is goodme at? He was actually explaining things.
_____________________________
So brave knights, if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for death awaits you all........with nasty, big, pointy teeth!!!
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