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Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/11/2008 3:42:19 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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I just heard a preacher say, with confidence, that Jesus "preached in hell between his death and resurrection."
I've heard that before, as well as other theories, but the scripture does not seem that clear on the issue to me. Therefore, I wrote it off as something we really don't need to know now.
But, admittedly, it's intriguing and I've got plenty of room to learn. 
What do you think and why?
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/11/2008 3:50:24 PM
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DougHorton
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Actually scripture is very clear.
Where did He tell the repentant thief he would be that very day?
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/11/2008 4:22:04 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Where did He tell the repentant thief he would be that very day? And how would that preclude His preaching in Hell sometime before Easter sunrise?
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/11/2008 4:27:00 PM
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DougHorton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Where did He tell the repentant thief he would be that very day? And how would that preclude His preaching in Hell sometime before Easter sunrise?
Hmmm... Let's see... He died about noon. The next day would begin at sundown just a few hours later. Sunrise, whether you believe His body was in the grave three days or one and a half days, was still on another day.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/11/2008 4:31:41 PM
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drmark
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And your point is...
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/11/2008 6:45:40 PM
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DougHorton
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There was no preaching in Hell. Any other questions?
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Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/11/2008 9:54:28 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
Actually scripture is very clear.
Where did He tell the repentant thief he would be that very day?
Great point!
I've been searching my concordance and haven't been able to find the scripture that has caused this "controversy" (probably too strong a word really)...maybe someone can give me a hint before I stay up all night and read the entire New Testament!
In the past, I've heard some interesting conclusions drawn from this passage: 1) that Jesus presented Himself to the saints that had died (i.e. Moses, Abraham, etc.) so they could see, with their own eyes, the Messiah; 2) that Jesus "preached" to all who had died so they would have the opportunity to "accept the gospel".
I think there were a couple of more, but those spring to mind.
I agree, Doug, that he met the thief in Paradise immediately. After that, well...just don't know how to make sense of that scripture...if I could only find it!
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/11/2008 10:09:47 PM
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WildByNature
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
I've been searching my concordance and haven't been able to find the scripture that has caused this "controversy" (probably too strong a word really)...maybe someone can give me a hint before I stay up all night and read the entire New Testament!
In the past, I've heard some interesting conclusions drawn from this passage: 1) that Jesus presented Himself to the saints that had died (i.e. Moses, Abraham, etc.) so they could see, with their own eyes, the Messiah; 2) that Jesus "preached" to all who had died so they would have the opportunity to "accept the gospel".
I think there were a couple of more, but those spring to mind.
I agree, Doug, that he met the thief in Paradise immediately. After that, well...just don't know how to make sense of that scripture...if I could only find it!
I believe you are searching for 1Peter 3, particularly verse 19.
And, yes. This verse is more-often-than-not taken out of context with mucho speculation added to it. Jesus went to "paradise" upon His death. Period.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/11/2008 10:16:49 PM
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bob97
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Where is paradise actually located? Is there any connection between paradise and Abraham’s Bosom?
"Abraham's bosom" was an expression in the oral traditions of the Jewish Rabbi's for the state of bliss after death.
The phrase "to be in one's bosom" applies to the person who so reclines at the table that his head is brought almost into the bosom of the one sitting next above him. To be in Abraham's bosom signified to occupy the seat next to Abraham. Christ, alludes to this in His speech to the Jews, describes the condition of Lazarus after death in Luke 16:22-2.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/11/2008 10:26:21 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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Finally found the scripture...and one is the I Peter passage you referred to, WildbyNature.
Here's what I found:
http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-go-to-hell.html
And here are the scripture references that have caused the question:
Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20
And here is the summation of that article at gotquestions:
"Did Jesus go to Hell? No. Did Jesus go to Sheol/Hades? Yes."
Not saying I'm in agreement, at this point...and it's not a "non-negotiable" thing anyway...just interesting.
Makes for good conversation, too!
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 12:28:54 AM
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WildByNature
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Where is paradise actually located? Is there any connection between paradise and Abraham’s Bosom?
Why yes, Bob, there is. I believe the referred to "paradise" to be located in Sheol/Hades -- the grave; as implied in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
In sum: Where was Jesus for those three days? In the grave. He was not in "hell". He was not in "heaven".
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 11:31:21 AM
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Abishua
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
......I believe the referred to "paradise" to be located in Sheol/Hades -- the grave; as implied in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
In sum: Where was Jesus for those three days? In the grave. He was not in "hell". He was not in "heaven".
Jesus was in the grave for three days and three nights, until the Almighty rose Jesus from the dead to be the Firstborn of the resurrection.
The teaching that Jesus was in Paradise with the thief the very day that they died would be a contradiction of Scripture.
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is not a teaching on heaven/hell or paradise/hades. In fact, that parable really has nothing to do with the afterlife at all.
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 11:44:47 AM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
The teaching that Jesus was in Paradise with the thief the very day that they died would be a contradiction of Scripture.
How could Jesus's own words have been a contradiction of scripture?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is not a teaching on heaven/hell or paradise/hades. In fact, that parable really has nothing to do with the afterlife at all.
Sorry??? What is that parable about?
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 11:47:06 AM
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DougHorton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
......I believe the referred to "paradise" to be located in Sheol/Hades -- the grave; as implied in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
In sum: Where was Jesus for those three days? In the grave. He was not in "hell". He was not in "heaven".
Jesus was in the grave for three days and three nights, until the Almighty rose Jesus from the dead to be the Firstborn of the resurrection.
The teaching that Jesus was in Paradise with the thief the very day that they died would be a contradiction of Scripture.
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is not a teaching on heaven/hell or paradise/hades. In fact, that parable really has nothing to do with the afterlife at all.
His body was in the grave three days. There is no question about that. However, His spirit went to Paradise that very day as He said. Now, as to the nature of "Paradise", that can be debated, but I find it hard to believe that a place of imprisonment for unbelievers would be referred to by the Son of God as "Paradise". I think it is a pretty good guess to say that He was spending time among the believers who had previously died. After all, who was that rose from their graves and entered Jerusalem that very afternoon?
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 12:24:26 PM
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Abishua
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
His body was in the grave three days. There is no question about that. However, His spirit went to Paradise that very day as He said. Now, as to the nature of "Paradise", that can be debated, but I find it hard to believe that a place of imprisonment for unbelievers would be referred to by the Son of God as "Paradise". I think it is a pretty good guess to say that He was spending time among the believers who had previously died. After all, who was that rose from their graves and entered Jerusalem that very afternoon?
If Jesus said: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." He would be contradicting scripture.
However, if Jesus said: "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." Then there would be no contradiction.
Jesus taught that the dead would rise at His second coming and that the angels would gather them unto Himself.
Most of the bibles I own render this verse with the comma before the word "today", but quite a few of them render it with the comma after the word "today".
Remember, punctuation....as well as upper case/lower case, was added by the translators, it was not included in the originals. So we need to seek harmony within Scriptures whenever we find a situation such as this one.
The dead do not go to heaven or hell, paradise or hades, as conscience beings aware of their surroundings right after they die...they just cease to exist, their bodies slowly decaying (corrupting). It is not until the resurrection that the dead will see life again.
Others have been resurrected, they simply die again, and are buried in the grave (hades). None have ascended to heaven save one...Jesus.
< Message edited by Abishua -- 8/12/2008 12:35:00 PM >
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 12:35:00 PM
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DougHorton
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quote:
The dead do not go to heaven or hell, paradise or hades, as conscience beings aware of their surroundings right after they die...they just cease to exist, their bodies slowly decaying (corrupting). It is not until the resurrection that the dead will see life again.
I see that this is why you think that scripture is contradicted.
Can you support the idea that there is no consciousness away from the physical body? If this is true, then I would concede that you are right.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 12:41:50 PM
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Abishua
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
quote:
The dead do not go to heaven or hell, paradise or hades, as conscience beings aware of their surroundings right after they die...they just cease to exist, their bodies slowly decaying (corrupting). It is not until the resurrection that the dead will see life again.
I see that this is why you think that scripture is contradicted.
Can you support the idea that there is no consciousness away from the physical body? If this is true, then I would concede that you are right.
Here are a few:
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." (Ecclesiastes 9:10)
"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalms 146:4)
"Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" (Psalms 6:4-5)
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 12:50:08 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
Jesus taught that the dead would rise at His second coming and that the angels would gather them unto Himself.
Maybe a tad off-subject, but what about Matthew 27:52-53, which Doug pointed out?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
The dead do not go to heaven or hell, paradise or hades, as conscience beings aware of their surroundings right after they die...they just cease to exist, their bodies slowly decaying (corrupting). It is not until the resurrection that the dead will see life again.
Again, may be off-subject, but what happens to the other components after death? The soul...the spirit?
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 12:59:34 PM
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WildByNature
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
However, if Jesus said: "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." Then there would be no contradiction.
Yes there would.
When we read the words of Jesus throughout scripture, we read "verily I say unto thee" numerous times. On no other occassion that we read those words did Jesus specify the time at which He proclaimed such a "truth" -- as opposed to Him telling them tomorrow or a week from then. It would be senseless of Him to specify such a time as they both hung on a cross, dying. When else would He tell this to the thief?
Claiming the comma is incorrectly placed is contrary to scripture and Christ's usual way of speaking.
quote:
So we need to seek harmony within Scriptures whenever we find a situation such as this one.
And such harmony comes from leaving the comma where it belongs -- before the word "today".
quote:
The dead do not go to heaven or hell, paradise or hades, as conscience beings aware of their surroundings right after they die...they just cease to exist, their bodies slowly decaying (corrupting). It is not until the resurrection that the dead will see life again.
Moving the comma; unconscienceness after death -- let me guess ... are you a JW?
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 1:09:57 PM
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Abishua
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Maybe a tad off-subject, but what about Matthew 27:52-53, which Doug pointed out?
The Scriptures speak of death as "sleep", Jesus Himself reffered to it as such, not because the dead are actually sleeping, but rather because of the temporary nature of death itself.
There are those that have been resurrected from their "sleep" prior to the second coming of Messiah. They will die once again, and once again, wait for their Messiah to come again to wake them from their "sleep" (death).
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Again, may be off-subject, but what happens to the other components after death? The soul...the spirit?
Man was created as a living soul. God created man from the dust of the ground and then breathed the breath of life into him. When a person dies, they return to the dust from which they were formed; the breath returns to God who gave it.
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 1:14:33 PM
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Soxfan
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Jesus went into Hades, where the faithful were, not hell, where the wicked are punished.
Word of Faith teachers do not believe in His victory on the cross, but instead teach it was not completed on the cross but in a battle in hell with the devil. This imaginative battle actually brings destruction to the gospel where Jesus REALLY conquered Satan and crushed Satan's head on the cross, not in hell. Colossians 2:15 says, “Having disarmed principalities and powers, he made a public spectacle of them triumphing over them in it.” This victory happened on the cross (v.14), so what is Christ doing suffering in hell by these same principalities and powers, as claimed? This doctrine is dangerous and affects many others. If Jesus went to hell, then Jesus did not speak the truth buy saying IT IS FINISHED. The death of Christ on the cross is then insufficient, not having the power by itself to save anyone. Thus, Paul could not have preached Christ was crucified for salvation..
Neither does Scripture say “Jesus took the keys of hell and death from Satan.” This again is a false word faith teaching. Neither did Satan steal the keys from Adam as the word faith teachers espouse, because Adam did not have them.
Here’s what the Scripture says in Rev. 1:18: “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Where does it say he took them? He possessed them. Again, the word faith preachers go beyond what is written with their imagination and make this up. This is a great Bible myth. In Rev. 1:18 the word is Hades, not hell; the key is the emblem of power and authority. Christ can both save and destroy, can both kill and make alive; similarly Jesus said in john 10:18 that no man takes His life from him, He lays it down himself. Death is still under His dominion, and He can recall the dead whenever He pleases. He is the resurrection and the life.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 tells us that “Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again.” There are no details like the name it and claim preachers have added with their fertile imaginations. It may make for good story-telling, but to cheer at this shows complete Biblical ignorance. Jesus said on the cross before He died, “Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit” (Matthew 27:50; John 19:30). If He landed in hell under Satan, then who is His Father in whom He committed his Spirit to? This is not a good picture; it mocks the most sacred time of Jesus' ministry, the very purpose for which the Son of God came to earth.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 1:30:42 PM
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Abishua
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
When we read the words of Jesus throughout scripture, we read "verily I say unto thee" numerous times. On no other occassion that we read those words did Jesus specify the time at which He proclaimed such a "truth" -- as opposed to Him telling them tomorrow or a week from then. It would be senseless of Him to specify such a time as they both hung on a cross, dying. When else would He tell this to the thief?
Claiming the comma is incorrectly placed is contrary to scripture and Christ's usual way of speaking.
Actually, the phrase "I say unto you this day" (or "...today") is a common Hebrew idiom which is used for solemn emphasis. It would not have been that unusual for Jesus to have said, "Truly I say to you today..." Another example from Scripture: 'I declare to you this day, that ye shall surely perish' (Deut. 30:18).
As an interesting side note, the thief died on a different day than Jesus did.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
Moving the comma; unconscienceness after death -- let me guess ... are you a JW?
Your problem is not with me, and whether or not I am a JW....It makes little difference. Your problem is with reconciling Scripture.
I have many different bible translations/versions and I would guess that at least 1/3 of them have the comma placed after the word "today". Again, I didn't move the comma.
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 2:17:03 PM
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DougHorton
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quote:
Here are a few:
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." (Ecclesiastes 9:10)
"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalms 146:4)
"Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" (Psalms 6:4-5)
Every one is poetry, not didactic teaching. They can no more be proof of the intermediate state of the spirit than Psalm 57 proves that God has wings (v. 1) or that David was surrounded by fire-breathing lions (v.4).
However, if you want to quote Ecclesiastes, there's 12:7:
... then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
What they do show us is the point of view man has of death. Especially Ecclesiastes is written from the point of view "under the sun" and that everything is vain... until God enters the picture. Psalms 146 and 6 likewise lament the state of natural man, saying that it is best to praise God in this life and not wait till the next.
In fact, "in that very day his thoughts perish" can also be translated "in that very day thoughts of him perish" indicating that it is the living who forget the dead, not that the dead stop thinking.
I concede Psalm 6 is referring to the body in the grave, but is says nothing of the spirit.
Admittedly, prior to Christ there is little teaching about life after death, because nobody had yet come back, except for Samuel's brief visit. The case of Samuel's spirit coming back needs explaining, and to say that it was an angel or demon in disguise is to say scripture lied, because scripture claimed it was Samuel.
How can these verses be explained?
2 Corinthians 5:6 - Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--
2 Corinthians 5:8 - ... we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
Paul saw fit to repeat that, indicating it was important.
Philippians 1:23 - But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better...
It seems the didactic portions of scripture give the impression that there is an intermediate state of the spirit between death and resurrection.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 3:37:50 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Again, may be off-subject, but what happens to the other components after death? The soul...the spirit?
Man was created as a living soul. God created man from the dust of the ground and then breathed the breath of life into him. When a person dies, they return to the dust from which they were formed; the breath returns to God who gave it.
Book, chapter and verse?
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