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The Three Views of Hell - 9/5/2008 9:41:46 PM
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steve7150
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Many Christians are only aware of one view of hell which is the eternal damnation view. From the KJV bible translation you would never dream there could be any other views yet they translate words into hell that simply do not mean that. They translate the greek word "hades" into hell yet it is the greek word for "sheol" which is the hebrew word for "grave."Also "gehenna" is also translated into hell but it refers to a physical location called the valley of hinnen just outside of Jerusalem. The philosophical support for the eternal damnation view is that any sin committed against the Eternal God must be punished with eternal torment. But there are at least two other scriptually supportable positions which are Conditional Immortality and Christian Universalism.
CI believes that the second death or the lake of fire burns up the wicked just as fire burns things up. CI is based on the fact that Paul states in 1st Tim 6.16 that God alone has immortality and for man to ascend to this must be by a gift from God. Therefore eternal life exists only for the saved. The most famous verse in the bible says that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. The key words being life verses perish.
The CU view has a surprising amount of scripture which seems to support it depending how you understand the word "all." This view believes in hell but that God uses it to eventually restore mankind to himself and unbelievers receive punishment proportional to their sins. It also views that often the use of the word "eternal" does not refer to an endless time span but actually refers to God as in "Eternal Fire" meaning God's judgment. There are many verses supporting CU so here are a few.
"we trust in the living God who is the Savior of all men especially those who believe." 1st Tim 4.10 Here we see a contrast between the saved and unsaved yet God is said to be everyone's Savior.
"For as in Adam all die even so in Christ all will be made alive." 1st Cor 15.22 Here it sounds like the "all" in Adam are the same "all" in Christ.
There are several keys to these views such as in John 5.29 in the KJV it says unbelievers are resurrected to "damnation" yet the greek word "krisis" actually means condemnation and is where the english word "crisis" comes from. Can someone emerge from a crisis sucessfully? Do we learn by going through crisis?
There is much much more to look at but for now any comments are appreciated.
< Message edited by steve7150 -- 9/5/2008 10:12:10 PM >
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/6/2008 1:41:31 AM
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whisperingwaters
Posts: 153
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Hell will be thrown into the Lake of Fire which is an eternal fire hell is not an eternal fire.
_____________________________
The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the well-spring of wisdom as a flowing brook. Proverbs 18:4
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/6/2008 8:41:45 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
Im glad you started this thread.
Its very obvious from the bible that there is one version of hell. And its eternal.
OK good to see you too! Possibly the strongest verse supporting the eternal torment (ET) view is Matt 25.46.
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal."
Sounds pretty cut and dry does'nt it? But the KJV is a bible translation subject to human bias.
The greek word "aionios" translated into everlasting is believed to be first used by Plato. It was the adjective of "aion" which meant "age" and Plato attached the prefix "ios" to pluralize it into "ages." And there was a different greek word he used for eternal which was "aidios" which he used to describe the gods.
The ET position is that in Matt 25.46 "aionios" must mean eternal because it is the same word used to contrast eternal life and eternal punishment.
But the righteous already have immortality which Paul said is given at the resurrection so the life they experience is by nature eternal already thus the description of life for them may be describing a quality of life with God. In this context the "righteous" are immortal already thus any description of time for them may be redundent. However even attributing the translation "ages" for them does not change the fact that they by definition already have immortality.
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 9:29:23 AM
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/6/2008 12:43:26 PM
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Thessa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
OK good to see you too! Possibly the strongest verse supporting the eternal torment (ET) view is Matt 25.46.
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal."
Sounds pretty cut and dry does'nt it? But the KJV is a bible translation subject to human bias.
The greek word "aionios" translated into everlasting is believed to be first used by Plato. It was the adjective of "aion" which meant "age" and Plato attached the prefix "ios" to pluralize it into "ages." And there was a different greek word he used for eternal which was "aidios" which he used to describe the gods.
The ET position is that in Matt 25.46 "aionios" must mean eternal because it is the same word used to contrast eternal life and eternal punishment.
But the righteous already have immortality which Paul said is given at the resurrection so the life they experience is by nature eternal already thus the description of life for them may be describing a quality of life with God. In this context the "righteous" are immortal already thus any description of time for them may be redundent. However even attributing the translation "ages" for them does not change the fact that they by definition already have immortality.
No. No. No. And did i say no? lol
Hell IS eternal - its forever. Its unrelentless. For all unbelievers. All of them. There will be NO chance when one is there that they will ever be able to leave, if you believe the bible - that is.
God spoke of Hell many many times. To make it seem like hell is only temporary would be to demean what Jesus did on the cross for our sins. Thats not directed at YOU per-se, but its the general idea that gets there by believing that.
Heres some things i found i think you should see. (btw i know you believe in God so im not in ANY way saying you are going there, its just to support what im saying about it being eternal for UNbelievers.)
http://www.av1611.org/hell.html
http://www.helltruth.com/q-a.aspx
http://www.carm.org/uni/eternal_hell.htm
http://www.takemyadvice.com/
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/6/2008 12:50:00 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
To make it seem like hell is only temporary would be to demean what Jesus did on the cross for our sins. Thats not directed at YOU per-se, but its the general idea that gets there by believing that.
I quite agree.
I find is amusing (and tragic) how quickly people agree that eternal life in heaven will go on and on forever, but that the eternal death in hell (or the lake of fire, or whatever word you want to use) will end.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 1:25:51 PM
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/6/2008 1:55:16 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1723
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quote:
I think the opposite is true. To think that hell is eternal and to think that God has not provided a way for all the cosmos, INCLUDING those that may or may not believe as you and I do is to demean the cross and make it almost pointless.
Do you believe Satan will be redeemed?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 2:37:25 PM
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/6/2008 5:42:00 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1723
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
I do believe hell is a very real potential reality. People can snub the outstretched hand of God, perhaps for eternity. If they are in hell it is by their own choosing.
I thought that a person's eternal destination was entirely up to God, not us.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 7:17:57 PM
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/6/2008 7:22:17 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1723
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quote:
Lastly, Notice I said "perhaps" for eternity. It is possible that God may take all of eternity to woo every lost person back into the fold. The end of Revletion leaves us with a great mystery - the river of life is flowing OUT of the city. Why is it going out? What could possible be in need of it?
That depends on how one views to geography of Heaven. Personally, I don't think there could be room for all the people in heaven in one city - even one as large as the New Jerusalem. While all people in Heaven will have access to the city, I believe that many people will live elsewhere on the new earth.
So, the river is flowing out of New Jerusalem just as many rivers flow through cities today.
quote:
My point was only to say that your salvation is not dependent upon me.
Or any other human agent?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 7:30:40 PM
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/7/2008 12:20:26 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1968
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From: Kansas
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quote:
There are several keys to these views such as in John 5.29 in the KJV it says unbelievers are resurrected to "damnation" yet the greek word "krisis" actually means condemnation and is where the english word "crisis" comes from. Can someone emerge from a crisis sucessfully? Do we learn by going through crisis?
Yes "krisis" can refer to condemnation but it can also refer to damnation and judgment;
quote:
G2920
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law):—accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/7/2008 12:38:01 AM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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Emerging im being VERY serious when i ask you this question...do you believe the bible to be true?
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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[Deleted] - 9/7/2008 7:33:08 AM
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/7/2008 9:28:30 AM
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Thessa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
Emerging im being VERY serious when i ask you this question...do you believe the bible to be true?
Absolutely.
Then how can you support anything you are posting in this thread?
It very clearly says what God wants and what will happen. I think that if anyone believes anything different they are just clinging to that last thread of 'hope' that if they sin they will be alright when they die. Not so. If they dont believe in God and die they will be in hell FOREVER. That it. Game over.
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/7/2008 11:18:19 AM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
Lastly, Notice I said "perhaps" for eternity. It is possible that God may take all of eternity to woo every lost person back into the fold. The end of Revletion leaves us with a great mystery - the river of life is flowing OUT of the city. Why is it going out? What could possible be in need of it?
I'm not sure the lake of fire sections in Revelation are such a mystery and if you take the parts after Rev chap 20 as mostly chronological they seem pretty clear.
The gates of New Jerusalem are always open.
Sure it says murderers,adulterers etc can not enter the gates but it also says the timid, should the timid be in eternal hell? What if these folks repent, it's to late?
The Bride (Folks already Saved) and the Spirit invite anyone to drink from the water of life. Rev 22.17 Who are they speaking to, it seems to either be directed at or at least include folks in the lake of fire since it's 5 verses from the end of the bible.
Hell can be real scary and punitive but to diminish it unless it's eternal just seems irrational. Would you like to be in hell thousands or millions of years?
And to claim Jesus's sacrifice is diminished unless hell is eternal is forgetting why he came "to be the Savior of the World."
That's why he came, that's the job God gave to him.
You think the job is to big for him?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/7/2008 1:55:11 PM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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So Steve...you're saying that if I'm a unrepented sinner and I die that way, that I can repent later somehow and be saved?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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[Deleted] - 9/7/2008 4:00:55 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/7/2008 4:02:02 PM
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/7/2008 6:10:18 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
Good post, Steve.
Thanks, appreciate it.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/7/2008 6:16:46 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
So Steve...you're saying that if I'm a unrepented sinner and I die that way, that I can repent later somehow and be saved?
It's interesting Bob that if a mass murderer accepts Christ a few minutes before he dies on his deathbed he can spend eternity with Christ, yet a teenage girl who never heard of Christ dies of starvation in Darfur should spend eternity in hell. Anything else would be an offense to God , correct?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/7/2008 6:52:37 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1968
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Hi Steve…
So tell me…are you saying that Paul is giving us bad information?
Rom 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
And that Jesus Christ was wrong when He told us that we must believe in Him for salvation?
Joh 3:16 "For God loved the world so much that He gave His one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
Your human compassion is telling us one thing and the bible is telling us something different…which is correct?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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