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Messianic Jew's History - 8/23/2008 9:42:07 AM
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drfuss
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Christian Jews in the New Testament kept parts of the law such as circumcision and festivals (Acts 20:16 and 21:20-26). As such, they could be considered Messianic Jews or at least a type of Messianic Jews.
I have some questions:
1. Has there always been some type of Messianic Jews down through history?
2. If not, when and why did they cease to exist?
3. If not, when did they reappear?
4. If so , where were they located and organized?
5. Would you consider the N. T. Christian Jews to be Messianic Jews?
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RE: Messianic Jew's History - 8/24/2008 9:08:08 AM
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LBolt
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I can say in the beginning...your scripture verses alludes to this. After the Temple's destruction in AD 70, things got really hard for believers, persecution from Domitian and various others, antisemitism grew and gentiles became more and more in influential leadership roles. In order to appeal to a broader base of people, syncretism set in.
As a result a lot of "Jewish customs" were laid aside. Such as Sabbath, the feasts... Sunday worship became norm and the adoption of certain sun-god worship holidays, customs (such as Rosary). In 325 AD, the Roman Emperor Constantine made official changes if you will throughout his empire and we are an heir successor to alot of his policies. I'm probably messing alot of key points...like Bar Choba's revolt.
I'll get back to some of your other questions like #4...this was a broad answer to #2.
These are very good questions...I can tell you are studying and asking questions.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Messianic Jew's History - 8/25/2008 10:50:16 AM
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drfuss
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drfuss: The reason for my interest in this comes from a discussion with a man that was raised a Jew and converted to Christianity as an adult. This converted Christian Jew has rejected all things Jewish and made statements to the effect that Messianic Jews are not saved because they hold on to some aspects of the law. He apparently has rejected his Jewish heritage. I do not know of any of his family relationships.
We had a little discussion the other day in which he seemed surprised that the N.T. Christian Jews had anything to do with the law or Jewish customs. I am trying to get some background information here so that I can be more knowledgeable should the opportunity arise to have another discussion.
I have been following the other thread on Messianic Gentiles; and it appears that some on that thread could help me on this.
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RE: Messianic Jew's History - 8/25/2008 10:54:41 AM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I can say in the beginning...your scripture verses alludes to this. After the Temple's destruction in AD 70, things got really hard for believers, persecution from Domitian and various others, antisemitism grew and gentiles became more and more in influential leadership roles. In order to appeal to a broader base of people, syncretism set in.
As a result a lot of "Jewish customs" were laid aside. Such as Sabbath, the feasts... Sunday worship became norm and the adoption of certain sun-god worship holidays, customs (such as Rosary). In 325 AD, the Roman Emperor Constantine made official changes if you will throughout his empire and we are an heir successor to alot of his policies. I'm probably messing alot of key points...like Bar Choba's revolt.
I'll get back to some of your other questions like #4...this was a broad answer to #2.
These are very good questions...I can tell you are studying and asking questions.
drfuss: Thank you, I look forward to the rest of your answers.
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RE: Messianic Jew's History - 8/27/2008 6:19:19 AM
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LBolt
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quote:
drfuss: The reason for my interest in this comes from a discussion with a man that was raised a Jew and converted to Christianity as an adult. This converted Christian Jew has rejected all things Jewish and made statements to the effect that Messianic Jews are not saved because they hold on to some aspects of the law. He apparently has rejected his Jewish heritage. I do not know of any of his family relationships.
I think the part of the reason for this is lies into the teachings of Judiasm which has 2 Torahs. The Word of God and the Oral Law (Mishna and Talmud). In Mark 7 Yahshua makes a stark distinction. Look up Judiasm and you see why he has those sentiments. Gotta run!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Messianic Jew's History - 8/28/2008 3:15:28 PM
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drfuss
Posts: 198
Joined: 3/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
Christian Jews in the New Testament kept parts of the law such as circumcision and festivals (Acts 20:16 and 21:20-26). As such, they could be considered Messianic Jews or at least a type of Messianic Jews.
I have some questions:
1. Has there always been some type of Messianic Jews down through history?
2. If not, when and why did they cease to exist?
3. If not, when did they reappear?
4. If so , where were they located and organized?
5. Would you consider the N. T. Christian Jews to be Messianic Jews?
drfuss: LBolt has addressed my question #2. Any ideas what the answers to the other questions might be?
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RE: Messianic Jew's History - 8/28/2008 3:32:32 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
1. Has there always been some type of Messianic Jews down through history?
2. If not, when and why did they cease to exist?
3. If not, when did they reappear?
4. If so , where were they located and organized?
5. Would you consider the N. T. Christian Jews to be Messianic Jews?
1. No
2. In 325 Constantine convened the first Nicean council. The Sect of the Nazoreans (as they were called) were excluded and branded as heretics. They were cut off from normative Judiasm after the Bar Kochba revolt of 135, and excluded from the rest of the church in 325. Their numbers slowly dwindled and apparently disappeared shortly after 400 ad.
3, 4. In the 1800s. Two men, both Jewish, became believers in eastern Europe. Rabbi Lichtenstien of Rumania led his entire congregation into faith in Yeshua/Jesus. The Catholic church tried to absorb him and his congregation but he steadfastly refused. The other, Joseph Rabinoitz, was quite the evangelist. He started several Hebrew Christian congregations in Moscow and other Russian cities. THe Hebrew Christian Alliance was started in London in the mid 1800s for Jewish believers. From there it spread to America and the mid east.
5. It depends on how you define "christian." If they are part of a regular gentile church and keep no ties to their Jewish heritage, then no. If they do keep ties to their heritage, probably yes.
http://www.tjcii.org/userfiles/Image/messianic-jewish-movement-an-inttroduction-Eng.pdf
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RE: Messianic Jew's History - 8/28/2008 4:23:25 PM
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Bluethread
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Just for clarification, we are talking about an organized community with an historical record, right? I believe in the principle of Adonai sustaining a remnant. Therefore, presuming Adonai has always intended us to live a Torah observant lifestyle, as I do, there have to have been individuals and small communities that have done so throughout the ages.
Admittedly, anyone could say the same about their lifestyle and beliefs. My point is that the lack of an historical record or organized body does not provide proof for or against any given lifestyle or set of beliefs, especially those beliefs that do not recognize authoritarian structure or consider nonbiblical history to be of much value.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 8/28/2008 4:30:35 PM >
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RE: Messianic Jew's History - 8/28/2008 8:40:15 PM
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drfuss
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drfuss: Thank you LBolt, Bluethread and DaveW. I have put your answers in my files. You have been very helpful.
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