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Lordship Salvation - 10/7/2008 4:50:25 PM
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GodsMusic
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Is correct.
MT 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
MK 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
LK 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/7/2008 5:16:47 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3159
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Please define your term, GM.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/7/2008 5:44:41 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1855
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
Is correct.
MT 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
MK 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
LK 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
GodsMusic,
You've got circular reasoning going on there. You have treated salvation and discipleship as synonymous terms.
1) The condition for salvation is faith in Christ. (Ephesians 2:8-9) "faith...not of works"
2) The conditions for discipleship are several: denying oneself, bearing one's cross, etc. That's more than just faith.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/7/2008 7:38:58 PM
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GodsMusic
Posts: 161
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
You've got circular reasoning going on there. You have treated salvation and discipleship as synonymous terms.
They are synonymous. Look here:
JN 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
1JN 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
See how these verses are pretty much identical.
Also, check this out:
ACTS 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/7/2008 11:15:24 PM
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drmark
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quote:
They are synonymous. So is that your best definition of "Lordship salvation"? It basically means "discipleship"?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/8/2008 12:11:43 AM
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MrFribbles
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If someone does not truly receive salvation until they are a disciple, then how is it that, in the book of Acts, we see individuals receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before they make any actions to devote their lives to Jesus?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/8/2008 12:22:19 AM
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bob97
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Sorry GodsMusic but I see nothing about discipleship in these verses;
Romans 10:9-10
9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/8/2008 5:36:36 AM
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GodsMusic
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In all honesty, I had never even heard the phrase "Lordship Salvation" until I saw it on these boards.
How can anyone not accept Christ as LORD, and be saved? It's not possible.
< Message edited by GodsMusic -- 10/8/2008 5:43:24 AM >
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/8/2008 6:21:42 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Sorry GodsMusic but I see nothing about discipleship in these verses;
Romans 10:9-10
9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Bob
FWIW, I think a disciple is simply one growing in knowledge and faith.
It is inevitable for every believer and starts the moment they are saved.
Discipleship is the process of learning and devotion that we desire,
but may let slip due to the pressures of the world, negligence, etc.
B97/Mr. Frib/Graham: If you believe our salvation is merely to save from the
fires, fine - live with that. You don't think spiritual growth is a given?
A baby is born and never grows up? We are predestined to christlikeness?
I firmly believe we are also saved for service - there are fruits of the Spirit,
there are new desires and a new relationship with sin - all marks of a disciple.
We have been entrusted with the gospel, called to a Great Commission,
given warnings, told to disciple our children, etc.
Then there is "discipleship" - a foreign concept to many nowadays, tragically.
God has given us a new heart and renewed our minds through repentance
and faith. We received the Holy Spirit when we were born again and
we become followers, "people of the Way" as Paul described them.
So my question is simply "Why wouldn't someone be a disciple of Christ
after they are saved?
I agree, GodsMusic. A call to salvation is also a call to service.
Discipleship is also tied up in the sanctification of the believer,
which I also believe is guaranteed and upon which we can be
assured our salvation is real.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/8/2008 6:30:39 AM
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rwe2156
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
In all honesty, I had never even heard the phrase "Lordship Salvation" until I saw it on these boards.
How can anyone not accept Christ as LORD, and be saved? It's not possible.
You've just innocently stated what your heart knows is true, GM.
We SERVE a risen Lord.
Willingly and joyfully.
Each according to his spiritual gifts and talents.
If people simply sit on their justification there is no church.
If our leaders expect nothing out of people, there is no church.
If pastor think their only purpose is to convince people, they are wrong.
Many turned away because they found Jesus' teaching to hard -
were these people true believers or not?
Our post-salvation doctrine is very weak and wrong, IMHO.
We respond to a call and we accept a mission in the process.
A disciple is probably nothing more than a follower.
If you are a believer, aren't you a follower?
Aren't you a sheep and Christ is your shepherd?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/8/2008 6:38:17 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
1) The condition for salvation is faith in Christ. (Ephesians 2:8-9) "faith...not of works"
2) The conditions for discipleship are several: denying oneself, bearing one's cross, etc.
That's more than just faith.
I don't think anyone is saying discipleship is a condition.
It is a result; the "other side" of our justification, if you will.
We are driving around with our registration in our car, so to speak.
How do you view salvation? Do you believe salvation is a process?
Justification/Sanctification/Glorification=Salvation.
Isn't sanctification of the believer part of that process?
If yes, you must believe we become disciples when we are saved.
No discipleship, no sanctification?
What you say? Is a gospel without any expectation for the believer really true?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/8/2008 9:24:38 AM
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timf
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Lordship Salvation
There are two groups that are somewhat defined by what they are opposed to. The people who fall into the Lordship group might be defined as those who oppose what they call "easy beliveism". They have a point. Some churches teach people that you become a Christian by saying a prayer or following a sacrament and that this gives them a ticket to heaven. They are rightly concerned that some people might be falsely confident in their salvation.
On the other hand, those who are sometimes called easy believers are concerned that the establishment of discernable benchmarks in the life of a believer lends itself to a works oriented theology and in itself can become a false assurance of salvation.
The case against "easy beliveism" can be made by the verse that commands us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.
The case against "lordship salvation" (that you cannot be a Christian unless you have made Jesus "Lord" of your life) is more difficult. Most of the difficulty comes from word definitions. However, there is a real danger in this view in becoming excessively preoccupied with measuring other Christians salvation while feeling no need for our own continued growth into the image of Christ.
Some of the problems associated with the Lordship position are;
1. Disinterest in helping struggling Christians (if they sin, they must not be Christian).
2. Disinterest in personal growth in the Lord (if I made the cut, there is nothing more required).
3. The elevation of accomplishment elevates the flesh and quenches the Spirit.
4. In Luke 18 (the Pharisee and the tax collector) the Pharisee is described as one who would justify himself. He is also described as one who has contempt for others. This is an interesting observation because often those who adhere to the Lordship view demonstrate just such contempt.
There is a real danger of entanglement with what Jesus calls the leaven of the Pharisees. Some who travel down this path demonstrate some characteristics of the Pharisees that essentially blind them to any correction.
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/8/2008 11:13:50 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1903
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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The person that truly accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is not concerned about man’s doctrine. That person has fallen in love with God and his love will induce him to develop in his personal relationship with God. Because of their love they will want to tell others.
Too many times it is the wannabe Christians who will develop the man made doctrines of what in necessary to be a Christian…because they don’t have the love in their hearts they think something else is necessary to earn their way into God’s grace.
We talk about discipleship but I think if given a survey 80% of Christians cannot even give an accurate definition.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/8/2008 5:33:52 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1855
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
You've got circular reasoning going on there. You have treated salvation and discipleship as synonymous terms.
They are synonymous. Look here:
JN 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
1JN 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
See how these verses are pretty much identical.
Maybe you should look at them closer. John 13:35 is not talking about the condition for salvation but the condition for demonstrating one's commitment outwardly.
1 John 3:14--"We know that we have passed from death to life..."--not we have passed from death to life by loving the brethren. The emphasis is on the verb "know," not passeth.
quote:
Also, check this out:
ACTS 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Sorry. I see nothing in the verse that supports your reasoning.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/8/2008 6:13:29 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1855
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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From post 9quote:
B97/Mr. Frib/Graham: If you believe our salvation is merely to save from the fires, fine - live with that. You don't think spiritual growth is a given?
A baby is born and never grows up? We are predestined to christlikeness?
rwe2156
No, spiritual growth is not a given. A person cannot get saved and then die the next day before he has any chance to grow?
We shall be Christlike when we die. But I don't think that is what the discussion is talking about here.
quote:
So my question is simply "Why wouldn't someone be a disciple of Christ
after they are saved?
It's called ingratitude and people do it all of the time. Are you suggesting that Christians cannot be so ungrateful so as to fail to be serious about their commitment to Christ? But, the issue isn't whether or not it makes sense but whether or not it is possible.
Generally, the people who hold these positions are speaking from experience. They either look back on their own lives and realize where they made the decision to finally get serious with God and return to Him. But, OTOH, they look at people who did not return to God and decide that they were never saved to begin with--judging the salvation of others whose heart they do not know.
from post #11
quote:
I don't think anyone is saying discipleship is a condition.
John MacArthur is among the foremost of Lordship Salvation advocates, and he believes exactly that. Essentially, he says that the condition(s) for salvation and discipleship are the same. If you are interested, I could probably dig up a quote or two. It is not some phrases that I keep handy.
quote:
How do you view salvation? Do you believe salvation is a process?
Justification/Sanctification/Glorification=Salvation.
Isn't sanctification of the believer part of that process?
If yes, you must believe we become disciples when we are saved.
No discipleship, no sanctification?
What you say? Is a gospel without any expectation for the believer really true?
The term salvation in its noun form and in its verb form (save) can refer to initial justification, sanctification and future glorification. Sometimes, the word in and of itself refers to none of those. To make matters cloudier, the term "justification" is NOT actually synonymous with salvation but people do often use them interchangeably.
You ask whether or not sanctification is a part of the process and then suggest that it follows that discipleship and sanctification are inevitably linked.
I would respond by saying that there is positional sanctification whereby we are viewed as sinless in God's eyes. Is that positional sanctification God's decision or ours? Do we decide whether or not He views us as sinless or is that His decision? I would suggest that it is His decision, not ours.
But there is also something called progressive sanctification, or practical sanctification. I view progressive sanctification as a decision that we make. And while I would not view it as the same thing as discipleship, I would view it as concurrent with it. We make the decision to try to become more Christlike and some of the things we try to do are to try to be obedient to Christ.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/8/2008 6:21:57 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1855
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
In all honesty, I had never even heard the phrase "Lordship Salvation" until I saw it on these boards.
How can anyone not accept Christ as LORD, and be saved? It's not possible.
Let's not confuse the issue. I really don't care for the way you phrased the question. I presupposes some concepts that I don't agree with. I cannot speak for everyone who disagrees with the Lordship Salv. position, but salvation is by faith in Christ. In order to be saved one must believe that Christ is who He said He was. And yes, He was/is Lord. I don't know of anyone who actually challenges the fact that He is Lord or that the Bible says that.
The Lordship Salvation Camp takes it a step further. They teach that a person must make a commitment to follow the Lord's commands in order to be saved. And if they fail to follow through with it, they are not saved.
IOW, there is more to the condition for a person's salvation than just "faith alone." Despite all the protestations to the contrary, there are other conditions besides faith for salvation.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/8/2008 6:45:15 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 463
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Godsmusic,
I'll throw another POV in here. I don't think I accepted Jesus as my Lord initially. I just accepted him as my Savior, a position He attained because He was Lord. And with that initial contact with God, my spirit was born again/saved. But my soul/(mind will emotion) wasn't saved and neither was my body/flesh. But as I made Him Lord of different areas of my life by having my mind/soul conformed to His mind I began working out the salvation of my soul (1 Pet. 1:21).
I agree that initial salvation for one's spirit is by faith and faith alone. But I believe we work out the salvation of our soul from the day we're 'born again' spiritually. Or, we can get into ingratitude, rebellion and backslide any where between day one and the grave. I don't believe that means we lost the born again salvation of our spirit...it just means we don't receive all the rewards we could have in the hereafter. I think the rewards are based upon spiritual growth which is dependent upon the progressive salvation of our soul. Whatever growth is attained will determine the type of glorified/saved body we ultimately receive (1Co 15:40-42).
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/8/2008 8:30:15 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
No, spiritual growth is not a given. A person cannot get saved and
then die the next day before he has any chance to grow?
So you want to take a very unique, very rare situation and make doctrine out of it?
Go ahead - you have the right to do that, but the Bible clearly tells
us we are predestined to christilikeness in this life. Rom 8:29.
quote:
RWE: So my question is simply "Why wouldn't someone be a disciple of Christ
after they are saved?
It's called ingratitude and people do it all of the time.
Ingratitude? Well then they are an ungrateful disciple, I guess. 
quote:
Are you suggesting that Christians cannot be so ungrateful so as to
fail to be serious about their commitment to Christ? But, the issue isn't whether
or not it makes sense but whether or not it is possible.
I am saying if we not only CANNOT fall away from grace, we WILL not fall away.
Just as He is faithful to his promise, so is his work effectual and continual.
My theology is the holiness is a guarantee for the believer, just
as his eternity is secure.
I believe sanctification is part of our salvation and without it we don't have it.
Without sanctification we have "believed" but have not "received".
quote:
Generally, the people who hold these positions are speaking from experience.
They either look back on their own lives and realize where they made the decision to
finally get serious with God and return to Him. But, OTOH, they look at people who
did not return to God and decide that they were never saved to begin with--judging
the salvation of others whose heart they do not know.
Yes, I am glad to see you agree our salvation is experiential, not just positional.
And that experience is different for every one. But a baby once born, does
not crawl all its life and drink milk all its life. It grows to maturity.
A seed once planted, and watered and germinated, inevitably grows and
produces fruit - no, not all of the same abundance or quality.
The Bible uses these metaphors for spiritual growth and I just
try to understand them for what they are
quote:
You ask whether or not sanctification is a part of the process and
then suggest that it follows that discipleship and sanctification are inevitably linked.
I would respond by saying that there is positional sanctification whereby we are
viewed as sinless in God's eyes.
But there is also something called progressive sanctification, or practical sanctification. I view progressive sanctification as a decision that we make.
We have a fundamental different view then, because I believe sanctification
is not optional, we are predestined for it in this life.
Phil 1:6 tells me this, as well as Rom 8:29.
We might be blameless UNTIL the day of Christ (1Cor 1:8; Phil 1:10).
God is at work in us (Phil 2:13; 1Cor 12:6; Heb 13:21)
quote:
And while I would not view it as the same thing as discipleship, I would
view it as concurrent with it. We make the decision to try to become more Christlike
and some of the things we try to do are to try to be obedient to Christ.
You aren't of the saved atheist crowd, are you?
If our sanctification was totally up to us, the church would have failed long ago.
Our sanctification is a synergy, but God definitely plays a part
because we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit when he saves us.
Yes, I might be more sanctified than someone else because I intention
to want to walk a Spirit-filled life, but the same power that saved me
also keeps me and also brings perseverance to my faith.
"If your faith is not a reality, it might not be real" is a message
I believe our shallow Christianity desperately needs to hear.
Sorry, but thinking salvation stops at justification is not the whole gospel.
Many, many are deceived because the never have the assurance
that sanctification brings to the believer.
OSAS as taught today in Eternal Security is heretical.
I'll tell you why if your interested.
Thanks.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/8/2008 9:40:36 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1855
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
No, spiritual growth is not a given. A person cannot get saved and
then die the next day before he has any chance to grow?
So you want to take a very unique, very rare situation and make doctrine out of it?
So, is it inevitable or not? Is it impossible or not? I was taking a single example to show that it is NOT a given. Let's not go to seed on some theological system and drag it into every discussion.
quote:
Go ahead - you have the right to do that, but the Bible clearly tells
us we are predestined to christilikeness in this life. Rom 8:29.
If you believe that it is inevitable then no Christian would die in sin, right? And there would be no such thing as a sin unto death for a Christian.
Let me suggest that the "glorification" spoken of in Rom 8:29 is not in this life, unless you think you are going to have a sinless body in this life too.
quote:
Ingratitude? Well then they are an ungrateful disciple, I guess.
Indeed.
quote:
quote:
Are you suggesting that Christians cannot be so ungrateful so as to fail to be serious about their commitment to Christ? But, the issue isn't whether or not it makes sense but whether or not it is possible.
I am saying if we not only CANNOT fall away from grace, we WILL not fall away.
I do not agree that the term "fall from grace" is the same thing as losing one's salvation. Paul does suggest that the Galatians have "fallen from grace."
Look. This is not a Calvinist pro/con argument thread. I would suggest that if you are going to go in that direction, you stop and take your argument to that thread. It's not my choice, it is the choice of the moderators. And frankly, I have no interest in arguing Calvinism with you. So, perseverance of the Saints cannot be a topic of this thread. The moderators have already ruled on it in the last Lordship Salvation thread.
So, drop it please? I have no interest in seeing this thread closed. And they'll do it in a heartbeat. They have already told me.
quote:
I believe sanctification is part of our salvation and without it we don't have it.
Without sanctification we have "believed" but have not "received".
As I addressed before, there is sanctification in two senses, not just one. Positional sanctification is true for every single believer. Practical sanctification is relative. Some have more of it than others do. Many people get into the fruit inspecting business. They start judging people's salvation based upon the fruit they can observe and assuming that because it is not at the expected level, they judge a person not being saved.
quote:
quote:
Generally, the people who hold these positions are speaking from experience. They either look back on their own lives and realize where they made the decision to finally get serious with God and return to Him. But, OTOH, they look at people who did not return to God and decide that they were never saved to begin with--judging the salvation of others whose heart they do not know.
Yes, I am glad to see you agree our salvation is experiential, not just positional.
And that experience is different for every one. But a baby once born, does not crawl all its life and drink milk all its life. It grows to maturity.
A seed once planted, and watered and germinated, inevitably grows and
produces fruit - no, not all of the same abundance or quality.
The Bible uses these metaphors for spiritual growth and I just
try to understand them for what they are.
Jesus parable of the soils in Mark 4:19 speaks of some soil which produces nothing. His words, not mine.
quote:
quote:
And while I would not view it as the same thing as discipleship, I would view it as concurrent with it. We make the decision to try to become more Christlike and some of the things we try to do are to try to be obedient to Christ.
You aren't of the saved atheist crowd, are you?
If a person tells me he's an atheist, I can only conclude that he never believed in the first place, no matter what he said before.
quote:
If our sanctification was totally up to us, the church would have failed long ago.
Our sanctification is a synergy, but God definitely plays a part
because we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit when he saves us.
I think I already said that.
quote:
Yes, I might be more sanctified than someone else because I intention to want to walk a Spirit-filled life, but the same power that saved me also keeps me and also brings perseverance to my faith.
"If your faith is not a reality, it might not be real" is a message
I believe our shallow Christianity desperately needs to hear.
Sorry, but thinking salvation stops at justification is not the whole gospel.
The whole gospel of what? We are talking about initial salvation aren't we? Or, are we talking about growth and maturity? If we are justified of our sins before God, are we born again or not?
Let us not cloud the issue by confusing the conditions for coming into Christ's kingdom and the needed teaching one is supposed to get and expect afterwords. Unfortunately, those sympathetic with the Lordship Salvation view tend to confuse growth and discipleship with the condition for salvation. Inevitably, they add other conditions besides faith in Christ. For all practical purposes, it's not faith alone, apart from works.
It derives from some reasoning that goes as follows. "We are saved by faith apart from works. And if we don't have works then we didn't have faith." Unless we have some definition of faith that changes in midstream without notice, such a statement is illogical.
I've been in these discussions before. They usually degenerate into some convoluted discussion whereby your side accuses my side of easy believism but cannot come up with a coherent definition of faith. So let's jettison logic and chase our tails around in circles.
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Many, many are deceived because the never have the assurance
that sanctification brings to the believer.
No wonder if they are told that they can believe in Christ and still not be saved.
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OSAS as taught today in Eternal Security is heretical.
I'll tell you why if your interested.
Thanks.
Thanks but no thanks.
First, be careful because if we delve too deeply into the eternal security issue, the moderators will likely cut off this thread.
Second, please don't set up some straw man and then cut it down. Often, in these type conversations, I wind up arguing with people about popular notions that they have heard poorly taught people espousing.
Third, "as taught today" probably involves your perception of what is most widely taught. When, in reality it is probably not widely a widely advocated position except among people who are teaching against it. That's normally the only places I hear it--except from people who are biblically illiterate. Typically, they think they understand some position, then explain it poorly, attribute it to some imagined percentage of a population that they can't even prove is a majority, and then rail against it as some straw man enterprise--then self-congratulate themselves that they have destroyed some popular icon.
It's a useless and unproductive, akin to unprofitable strivings, IMHO.
Let's not, OK? Let's stick to the topic. It's Lordship Salvation, not OSAS and not perseverance of the saints. Again, those aren't my rules, they're Crosswalk's rules.
Annnnnddd...BTW. I personally avoid both the Calvinism threads and the OSAS threads. I certainly don't want those dragged into this thread.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/8/2008 10:40:58 PM >
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/8/2008 10:46:25 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: timf
Lordship Salvation
There are two groups that are somewhat defined by what they are opposed to. The people who fall into the Lordship group might be defined as those who oppose what they call "easy beliveism". They have a point. Some churches teach people that you become a Christian by saying a prayer or following a sacrament and that this gives them a ticket to heaven. They are rightly concerned that some people might be falsely confident in their salvation.
This lines up the most accurately with the MacArthurites.
When reading MacArthur material I did not see the reference to 2 groups, but definitely the target is "easy believism". I am not expert on LS, but according to MacArthur, LS is a response to combat EB. The origin of terminology is understandable enough, and makes sense to the Body of Christ. But, little impact if any will fall on the EB practicing churches, since they are immersed in "getting people in", the rebuke will fall on deaf ears.
The Bible already tells us there is weeds with the wheat, and some will leave because they were never really among us, or never "saved".
I clearly see the need to expose EB and it's perils, but to position LS as a type of benchmark appears to be a manmade work. Then to accuse any dissent as non-LS is rather myopic. One can easily be non-LS and not be pro-EB.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/9/2008 10:09:27 AM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Sorry GodsMusic but I see nothing about discipleship in these verses;
Romans 10:9-10
9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
The word "Lord" is similar to master and if Christ is your master then you are his slave or servant which a disciple essentially is.
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/9/2008 10:35:53 AM
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bob97
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