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Daniel's Seventieth Week - Dan. 9:24-27 - 9/17/2008 9:12:36 PM
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ChristopherJ
Posts: 228
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: Canada (The True North Strong and Free!)
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Dear friends,
I have been studying the Book of Revelation, and in the course of my study, journeyed into its OT companion, Daniel. After studying extensively the passage in Daniel 9:24-27, I have come to a radically different conclusion than that which is most popularly held by those who ascribe to the Left Behind end-times theology, namely, that these verses are talking about the Antichrist. I believe the plain, simple and obvious reading of this passage shows that it is speaking of Jesus and His first coming, as quoted from my blog below:
We have established that Daniel’s 70th week began at the inauguration of Jesus’ ministry in 27 AD, when He was anointed “Messiah the Prince” by John the Baptist. In the midst of this prophetic week, three and a half years later, the “Messiah was cut off” – that is, Jesus was crucified, in 30 AD.
Now, another three and a half years led up to the end of the 70 weeks (the 490 consecutive years) and the end of the Jewish probation. During that time, the disciples preached the Gospel mainly to the Jews (Acts 1-7), but in AD 34, at the end of the 70 weeks, Stephen was stoned (Acts 7:59), and the Gospel began to be preached to the Gentiles (Acts 8:4). Isn’t that amazing? The seventy weeks of Daniel – this 490 year prophetic time period – all fits together so beautifully and perfectly. Everything Daniel prophesied took place exactly as the angel said it would.
It boggles my mind how the PDF (premillennial, dispensational, futurist) theologians rip this seventieth week of Daniel’s out of its natural context and set it out to be some seven year tribulation immediately prior to Jesus’ second coming.
If you belong to that camp of eschatology, would you be willing to share with me how you come to the conclusions:
1. That Daniel's seventieth week does not consecutively follow the first 69.
2. That the Scripture in Daniel 9:24-27 speaks of the Antichrist, and not Jesus the Christ.
Thanks for your help!
(p.s. for more of an understanding of how I came to my conclusions, click here:
http://chris-jordan.blogspot.com/
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.beausejourchurch.ca
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(visit our website for free MP3 audio sermons, sermon notes, articles, devotionals and more).
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RE: Daniel's Seventieth Week - Dan. 9:24-27 - 9/18/2008 9:54:37 AM
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stolar1962
Posts: 35
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quote:
We have established that Daniel’s 70th week began at the inauguration of Jesus’ ministry in 27 AD, when He was anointed “Messiah the Prince” by John the Baptist. In the midst of this prophetic week, three and a half years later, the “Messiah was cut off” – that is, Jesus was crucified, in 30 AD.
Obviously, you missed an important part of the equation. You need to read Daniel again as it states that after a total of 69 weeks, the annointed one will be cut off - the end of the 69th week occurred when Jesus rode into Jerusalem as her king as was rejected.
Also, when Jesus started his ministry, He did not enter into any convenant for one week with the nation. nor did he cause Sacrifices to end at mid poitn. He did not "set up an abomination that causes desolation." vs27
Perhaps you should look at Jesus own words in Matt 24:15
* "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--"
Jesus indicated that the 7 year time span you attribute to His ministry hasn't even started during His time on Earth but was still a future occurence.
We don't rip it out of context - As Jesus indictated that these events would precede His coming.
Pay attention to the timeline in Daniel:
1) from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the coming of the annointed one would total 69 weeks, after which the annointed one (Messiah) would be cut off.
2) The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary - He will (not Messiah) would enter into a 7 year pact which he will break in the middle, cause sacrifices to end and set up an abomination in the temple.
All you've done is open a vein of preterism. Nothing special here.
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RE: Daniel's Seventieth Week - Dan. 9:24-27 - 9/18/2008 11:20:31 AM
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ChristopherJ
Posts: 228
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: Canada (The True North Strong and Free!)
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Stolar,
Thanks for your response, looking forward to discussing this with you.
You are right that it says the Messiah would be cut off after the 69th week, and He was - exactly three and a half years after the end of that 69th week. This corresponds perfectly with verse 27 of Daniel 9 which says that in the midst of the week (three and a half years into it), He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. This is exactly what Jesus accomplished through His death on the Cross!
In regards to the abomination that causes desolation, too many people have erroneously adopted the now-popular dispensationalist viewpoint that this is referring to some idolatrous object of worship being set up in the temple. However, if you allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, you will not come to this conclusion. Compare the three passages of Matthew 24, Luke 13 and Luke 21:
Matt. 24:15: "When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which is described by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let him that reads understand..."
Luke 13:14: "But when you shall see the abomination of desolation, which is described by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that reads understand..."
Luke 21:20: "And when you shall see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is at hand."
Note that neither Matthew nor Mark explain what the abomination that causes desolation is. LUKE DOES. He says that it is Jerusalem (the Holy Place) being surrounded by armies! This is confirmed also by many other Scriptures where Jesus clearly declared the judgment that would befall Jerusalem in 70 AD: Matt. 23:28-31; 37-39 (the context for Matthew 24's discourse); Luke 19:41-47.
It makes no sense whatsoever (and there is no hermeneutical principle to justify) to place this arbitrary 2,000+ year gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel's prophecy. Can you explain to me why you do it? It's also important to note that in Jesus' Olivet discourse in Matthew 24 He is dealing with three separate events, and answering three different questions posed by the disciples:
"And Jesus said to them, Do you not see all these things? Verily I say to you, There shall not be left one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down. *Destruction of the Temple* And while he was sitting on the mountain of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, Tell us, when will these things be? *Destruction of the Temple* and what is the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? *Second Coming* ." (Matthew 24:2-3).
Even the disciples were confused and assumed that Christ's second coming would take place during the destruction of Jerusalem (which happened in 70 AD), and that the world would end then.
You made the statement: "All you've done is open a vein of preterism. Nothing special here." Nothing could be farther from the truth! To conclude that Daniel 9:24-27 is speaking of the Christ does not necessitate a preterist conclusion... one can adopt a continuous / historical perspective here as well. Also, it's interesting to note that some of the most noted premillennialists - including Charles Spurgeon, the Prince of Preachers - also see Jesus the Messiah being spoken of in this passage, and I quote:
“The first coming of our Lord is spoken of in (Daniel 9:24-27) as ordained to be before the seventy weeks were finished, and the city (Jerusalem) should be destroyed; and so it was even as the prophet had spoken… Jesus Christ our Lord, the Messiah, came exactly as it was prophesied, and remained on earth as it was foretold he should do; in the middle of the predestinated (seventieth) week he was cut off, when he had completed three and a half years of saving ministry, and with another period of like length the gospel was p reached throughout all nations, and Messiah’s peculiar relation to Israel was cut off.” (Charles Spurgeon, Messiah’s Glorious Works).
So you can be amill, postmill, or even premill (non-dispensational of course) and still hold to the correct historical-grammatical interpretation of this passage...
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.beausejourchurch.ca
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(visit our website for free MP3 audio sermons, sermon notes, articles, devotionals and more).
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RE: Daniel's Seventieth Week - Dan. 9:24-27 - 9/18/2008 9:50:11 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 501
Joined: 10/5/2006
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Sorry to disappoint you, but from a sequence-of-events point of view, there is ample evidence within Gabriel's prophecy for a gap in time for the Church Age.
This was also prophesized by Hosea:
HOS 6:2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.
The seven and sixty-two 'sevens' are linked in the Hebrew by a conjunction: "and."
The one 'seven' is not directly linked but AFTER the sixty-second 'seven' these events are listed by Gabriel before he gets to the end of the Church Age.
1. The Messiah will be cut off.
2. The city and the sanctuary will be destroyed.
3. Wars continue until the end.
We have war now. We have had war for a long time. There was even war during the Pax Romana, in fact, both Jewish rebellions happened during that time... There has been continual war since the time of Christ.
We are not at the end yet, nor has it happened.
This last fact determines that wars will be part of the one 'seven.' The last battle is Armageddon.
Then the rock will have smashed the nations in accordance with Daniel 2.
So the third event includes the one 'seven' because that ends the world as we know it.
After this time, the Millennium takes over.
So Daniel 9:27 is set in parallel to Daniel 9:26 because both end in the "end."
The second account, which is set in parallel to the overview is more descriptive about a time that is of intense interest to us.
This follows the nature of parallel accounts in the Bible.
In the parallel verse to 9:26, we get added information about the one 'seven.'
We get the start which is a covenant which has the force of military strength enforcing it.
There is a midpoint abominations (plural) which comes quickly (on wing).
In the end, the desolations God has decreed will be poured out on the desolator.
These items were not fulfilled in the first century.
Jesus did not force a covenant with military might.
Stephen did not die exactly 3 1/2 years after Jesus' crucifixion. In fact, no one has a date for his stoning. Making it 3 1/2 years is pure fiction.
The desolations decreed are on the Scroll, and none of those events have been fulfilled yet not in the least.
You're on the wrong road my friend...
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RE: Daniel's Seventieth Week - Dan. 9:24-27 - 9/20/2008 6:58:57 PM
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ChristopherJ
Posts: 228
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: Canada (The True North Strong and Free!)
Status: offline
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Sinner-Saint,
quote:
Sorry to disappoint you, but from a sequence-of-events point of view, there is ample evidence within Gabriel's prophecy for a gap in time for the Church Age.
This was also prophesized by Hosea:
HOS 6:2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.
The seven and sixty-two 'sevens' are linked in the Hebrew by a conjunction: "and."
1. Can you explain to me what this 'ample evidence' is in Gabriel's prophecy that allows for a gap in time for the so-called church age? Consider this quote: “Thus the first and last parts of the prophecy are bound firmly together. It is impossible to detach the 70th week from the other 69 without destroying the prophecy as a whole. For if the 70th consecutive week from the starting point was not the 70th of the prophetic period, then none of the six predicted things came to pass within that period. In that view they all happened in an unmentioned gap between the 69 (which brought us "unto the Messiah") and the 70th which is yet future. Thus, according to this view, the prophecy has been completely falsified.” (Philip Mauro, The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation).
2. I don't understand what your Hosea quote has to do with this imaginary gap in Daniel - please explain?
3. If you read the original Hebrew text of Daniel 9:25, you will not find the conjunction in the original language - it was later added by the translators to help give the sense in the English language. See below:
ëä åÀúÅãÇò åÀúÇùÒÀëÌÅì îÄï-îÉöÈà ãÈáÈø, ìÀäÈùÑÄéá åÀìÄáÀðåÉú éÀøåÌùÑÈìÇÄí òÇã-îÈùÑÄéçÇ ðÈâÄéã--ùÑÈáËòÄéí, ùÑÄáÀòÈä; åÀùÑÈáËòÄéí ùÑÄùÌÑÄéí åÌùÑÀðÇéÄí, úÌÈùÑåÌá åÀðÄáÀðÀúÈä øÀçåÉá åÀçÈøåÌõ, åÌáÀöåÉ÷, äÈòÄúÌÄéí.
The bottom line is, that if anyone uses ONLY the Scripture as their guide - and not the imperfect teachings of human beings, they can only come to one logical conclusion: Daniel 9:24-27 is a prophecy about the first coming of Jesus Christ!
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.beausejourchurch.ca
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(visit our website for free MP3 audio sermons, sermon notes, articles, devotionals and more).
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RE: Daniel's Seventieth Week - Dan. 9:24-27 - 9/20/2008 7:34:06 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 501
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
Can you explain to me what this 'ample evidence' is in Gabriel's prophecy that allows for a gap in time for the so-called church age?
I already did. You don't accept it whether you can understand what I'm saying or not.
The sequence-of-events approach, which I have developed, starts with the premise that the Bible presents prophecy in a linear narrative: this happens and then that happens... and so on.
Daniel 9:26 taken from a sequence-of-events lists three things which happen before the end and that end includes the one 'seven.'
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
Consider this quote:
Well the first thing I'll note is that his premise includes a conclusion; he binds them altogether.
One of the tools of prophecy I have discerned is that God has gaps in prophecy.
Isaiah 61:2 has a similar gap to Daniel 9:26 and it does it within a single sentence without any events listed between Jesus' first Advent and His second.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Philip MauroJ
the prophecy has been completely falsified.”
Philip Mauro is a Preterist.
I think Preterism is the weakest eschatology out there...
Needless to say I disagree with his position and his interpretation completely, but the man is dead so there is no use trying to argue against him.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
I don't understand what your Hosea quote has to do with this imaginary gap in Daniel - please explain?
There is a gap in Israel's walk with God.
Some commentators say the Church Age is overlooked in prophecy. I don't think that is a true statement.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
If you read the original Hebrew text of Daniel 9:25, you will not find the conjunction in the original language
I cannot read the hieroglyphics you posted.
In the original language there is a prefix to the sixty-two not found in Strongs concordance.
It acts as a conjunction linking the seven and the sixty-two.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
Daniel 9:24-27 is a prophecy about the first coming of Jesus Christ!
It is not by some "imperfect teachings of human beings" that I say the Daniel 9:27 was NOT fulfilled by Jesus in His first Advent.
Jesus did not gabar anything. If you study the word and not just trust the KJV for the English translation, you would be offended that anyone would even try to apply that verb to Jesus' first Advent as the Servant Messiah.
Nor should anyone have to accept that Jesus put forth any covenant which had an expiration date...
Nothing in the first century displays any of the desolations God has decreed as revealed by John when he wrote Revelation at the end that century which Gabriel prophesized would be poured out. And how apt is it for Gabriel to use that verb when we now know that the final desolations God has decreed are delivered via Bowls!
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RE: Daniel's Seventieth Week - Dan. 9:24-27 - 9/20/2008 8:13:01 PM
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eschatologist
Posts: 66
Joined: 1/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
Dear friends,
I have been studying the Book of Revelation, and in the course of my study, journeyed into its OT companion, Daniel. After studying extensively the passage in Daniel 9:24-27, I have come to a radically different conclusion than that which is most popularly held by those who ascribe to the Left Behind end-times theology, namely, that these verses are talking about the Antichrist. I believe the plain, simple and obvious reading of this passage shows that it is speaking of Jesus and His first coming, as quoted from my blog below:
We have established that Daniel’s 70th week began at the inauguration of Jesus’ ministry in 27 AD, when He was anointed “Messiah the Prince” by John the Baptist. In the midst of this prophetic week, three and a half years later, the “Messiah was cut off” – that is, Jesus was crucified, in 30 AD.
Now, another three and a half years led up to the end of the 70 weeks (the 490 consecutive years) and the end of the Jewish probation. During that time, the disciples preached the Gospel mainly to the Jews (Acts 1-7), but in AD 34, at the end of the 70 weeks, Stephen was stoned (Acts 7:59), and the Gospel began to be preached to the Gentiles (Acts 8:4). Isn’t that amazing? The seventy weeks of Daniel – this 490 year prophetic time period – all fits together so beautifully and perfectly. Everything Daniel prophesied took place exactly as the angel said it would.
It boggles my mind how the PDF (premillennial, dispensational, futurist) theologians rip this seventieth week of Daniel’s out of its natural context and set it out to be some seven year tribulation immediately prior to Jesus’ second coming.
If you belong to that camp of eschatology, would you be willing to share with me how you come to the conclusions:
1. That Daniel's seventieth week does not consecutively follow the first 69.
2. That the Scripture in Daniel 9:24-27 speaks of the Antichrist, and not Jesus the Christ.
Thanks for your help!
(p.s. for more of an understanding of how I came to my conclusions, click here:
http://chris-jordan.blogspot.com/
First of all, in your interpretation you have Jesus, the Messiah, being cut off in the middle of the seventieth week. The prophecy in Daniel states that the Messiah shall be "cut off" at the end of the 69th week, still leaving one more week to go, the 70th week. So, verse 27 talks about this 70th week: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week"; this cannot be talking about Jesus, because although Jesus did confirm a new covenant between God and man, i.e. "This is the new testament of my blood, this do ye as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me." (talking about communion, and remembering His sacrifice on the cross for us) His was a covenant that is going to last forever. This prophecy talks about someone who confirms a covenant with many people for only that one week or period of 7 years. Then it continues: "and in the midst of the week he shall cause the Sacrifice and the oblation to cease," So, in the middle of the week (after 3 1/2 years, leaving 3 1/2 to go) he forbids religious worship. "And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consumation (the end) and that determined shall be poored upon the desolate." This refers to the abomination of desolation that Jesus talked abouit in Mathew 24. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet stand in the Holy place, (The Jewish temple in Jersuselem) Then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." That's how we know this to be talking about the antichrist. He makes a covenant with many nations for seven years but then breaks the covenant after 3 1/2 years and causes the whole world to worship him instead of God, and places the abomination of desolation in the temple and makes it desolate with his blasphemies. This last 3 1/2 years is the time perid of the great tribulation.
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RE: Daniel's Seventieth Week - Dan. 9:24-27 - 9/20/2008 10:14:10 PM
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jeffweeder
Posts: 5
Joined: 1/24/2006
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quote:
First of all, in your interpretation you have Jesus, the Messiah, being cut off in the middle of the seventieth week. The prophecy in Daniel states that the Messiah shall be "cut off" at the end of the 69th week, still leaving one more week to go, the 70th week
Hi
It doesnt say that, it says after the 69 weeks he will be cut off.
We must consider all the scripture..
quote:
"So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
There would be 69 weeks until Messiah.
Until Messiah is revealed = Jesus Baptism and the start of his ministry.
3 1/2 years later he was cut off.
What did Jesus achieve during these 3 1/2 years of the 70th week?.;
"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.
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RE: Daniel's Seventieth Week - Dan. 9:24-27 - 9/20/2008 10:24:42 PM
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ChristopherJ
Posts: 228
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: Canada (The True North Strong and Free!)
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Sinner-Saint:
Sorry about the characters in the Hebrew text I tried to quote... they didn't show up properly when the message posted... anyway, on to the discussion!
In regards to your discussion about the word "gabar" - translated "confirm" the covenant. The word defined simply means: to prevail, have strength, be strong, be powerful, be mighty, be great. I don't know why people have a hard time accepting the fact that Jesus is strong and mighty. They have been so brainwashed by the modern art that shows only the 'meek and mild' Shepherd Jesus, carrying little sheep on his shoulders. But what about the powerful Jesus who turned over the tables in the temple? Or the description of Jesus in Revelation 19:11-14:
"Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses."
Thus, I have no problem with the word gabar being used to describe the establishing of the New Covenant.
quote:
There is a gap in Israel's walk with God.
This is based on an erroneous, dispensational theology that says that Israel and the Church are two different peoples of God. Israel was the Church in the Old Testament, and the Church is the Israel of God in the New Covenant. “The historic Christian teaching holds that national Israel was a type or a forerunner of the church, and that the church replaced Israel on the day of Pentecost… God has but one plan of salvation. There is also only one body of God. This body is made up of every born again individual from both the Old and New Testaments. God’s people were known in the Old Testament as “Israel.” The same people, in the New Testament, are known as “the church.” As a matter of Scriptural fact, these terms are used interchangeably: the church is referred to as “Israel” (Gal. 6:16), while the Old Testament remnant is referred to as “the church” (Acts 7:38).” (Amillennialism Today).
Thus, the idea of a 'church age' is meaningless.
quote:
Nothing in the first century displays any of the desolations God has decreed as revealed by John when he wrote Revelation at the end that century which Gabriel prophesized would be poured out.
If you read my blog over the next four days, that is the very topic that I am dealing with, which explains how the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was actually a literal fulfillment of the destructions described in Revelation, and Matthew 24...
See here: http://chris-jordan.blogspot.com/
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.beausejourchurch.ca
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(visit our website for free MP3 audio sermons, sermon notes, articles, devotionals and more).
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RE: Daniel's Seventieth Week - Dan. 9:24-27 - 9/20/2008 10:25:46 PM
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ChristopherJ
Posts: 228
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: Canada (The True North Strong and Free!)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jeffweeder
quote:
First of all, in your interpretation you have Jesus, the Messiah, being cut off in the middle of the seventieth week. The prophecy in Daniel states that the Messiah shall be "cut off" at the end of the 69th week, still leaving one more week to go, the 70th week
Hi
It doesnt say that, it says after the 69 weeks he will be cut off.
We must consider all the scripture..
quote:
"So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
There would be 69 weeks until Messiah.
Until Messiah is revealed = Jesus Baptism and the start of his ministry.
3 1/2 years later he was cut off.
What did Jesus achieve during these 3 1/2 years of the 70th week?
"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."
Excellent post, Jeff. Thanks for joining the discussion!
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.beausejourchurch.ca
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(visit our website for free MP3 audio sermons, sermon notes, articles, devotionals and more).
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RE: Daniel's Seventieth Week - Dan. 9:24-27 - 9/21/2008 1:04:54 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1977
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
This is based on an erroneous, dispensational theology that says that Israel and the Church are two different peoples of God. Israel was the Church in the Old Testament, and the Church is the Israel of God in the New Covenant. “The historic Christian teaching holds that national Israel was a type or a forerunner of the church, and that the church replaced Israel on the day of Pentecost… God has but one plan of salvation. There is also only one body of God. This body is made up of every born again individual from both the Old and New Testaments. God’s people were known in the Old Testament as “Israel.” The same people, in the New Testament, are known as “the church.” As a matter of Scriptural fact, these terms are used interchangeably: the church is referred to as “Israel” (Gal. 6:16), while the Old Testament remnant is referred to as “the church” (Acts 7:38).” (Amillennialism Today).
There is only one way to salvation and that is through Jesus Christ but there two different groups of people...the seed of Issac and the church.
The book of Revelation is primarily about God's dealings with the seed of Isaac in the latter days. The church has not replaced Israel but Israel was set aside for a time while God brings in the church. When the time of the gentile is complete, God will again turn His attention back to the house of Israel and the house of Judah as laid out in Jeremiah 31:31-32.
The implementation of the new covenant is yet to be fulfilled but the church is saved under the covering of the new covenant.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Daniel's Seventieth Week - Dan. 9:24-27 - 9/21/2008 8:43:42 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 501
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
The word defined simply means: to prevail, have strength, be strong, be powerful, be mighty, be great.
It is also used in a military sense and in one Hebrew stem it can denote arrogance as to literally to stand in defiance of God.
Jesus did not force anything on the cross.
Rather, He let evil "win" and by surrendering Himself as a ransom for many; He "won" not only a multitude of souls, but fulfilled everything the Father asked of Him without anything -
- without the Ark of the Covenant and the whole of Israel marching round seven times
- without 300 men with trumpets, jars and torches
- without a brother and a staff...
Jesus was alone, naked, persecuted and condemned and when the price was paid: Jesus gave up His life for us - they did not take it from Him. That is why the Centurion said: "Surely this was the Son of God.
You are mixing up two aspects of Jesus, the Lion and the Lamb.
Jesus did not act as a Lion in fulfilling the Father's plan of Salvation.
He will return as the Lion.
THAT is the difference between His Advents just as it is in Isaiah 61:2.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
This is based on an erroneous, dispensational theology that says that Israel and the Church are two different peoples of God.
Again, you blend different things together.
I can define Israel four different ways:
1. The man: Jacob
2. The land
3. The physical nation of the twelve tribes
4. The spiritual nation which Paul expounds upon which is the Church.
Paul differentiates two different peoples of God:
RO 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
RO 11:27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
Hosea 6:2 also reveals the Church Age.
This present time with the rule of faith defines the Church Age.
There is a time coming when Jesus will be a present reality. Then the rules will change. There will be no need for faith when Jesus can be proved: only obedience. And it is said He will rule with an iron scepter... I know, you don't agree, do you? I thought so...
So it is not erroneous to view a distinct difference between Messianic Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus as being different than the natural Jews who try to live under OT Laws. Indeed, it is a fact of life that there are Jews and Christians.
God will not forsake Israel entirely, but will redeem a remnant out of disobedient Israel, those Jews who do not believe in Jesus, who in fact reject Jesus entirely. A remnant, a third of Israel, will come to know their Messiah as being the one they had pierced (Zec 12:10).
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
Thus, the idea of a 'church age' is meaningless.
I think you are very, very wrong. But then again I think extremely poorly of anything Preterist too.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
If you read my blog over the next four days, that is the very topic that I am dealing with, which explains how the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was actually a literal fulfillment of the destructions described in Revelation, and Matthew 24...
LOL.
It wasn't and I won't waste my time reading your blog.
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RE: Daniel's Seventieth Week - Dan. 9:24-27 - 9/21/2008 8:52:12 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 501
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was actually a literal fulfillment of the destructions described in Revelation, and Matthew 24...
It's funny that Preterists want to put the one 'seven' as running concurrently with the sixty-two and seven 'sevens' and then put a gap in between the first half and the second half of the one 'seven.'
That's not logical, but it is how far they have to bend their rules in order to make their eschatology work in their minds.
However, the destruction of the city and the sanctuary was foretold as one of three things which would happen before the end. That is in Daniel 9:26.
It was not THE end.
Wars still continue and they will be fought in the one 'seven.'
There will be an invasion of Israel by the North just before the midpoint of the one 'seven.'
There will a continuation of that invasion into the "South" as the ruler who will come fights on.
Jesus will fight two battles on the Day of the Lord.
There will be a world war which will kill a third of mankind - billions will die!
And finally there will be the final battle between North and South with East and Jesus will be victorious over all.
THAT will be the end, not some minor seige during the first Jewish rebellion during the Pax Romana. (It was so minor, historians don't consider it a war.)
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RE: Daniel's Seventieth Week - Dan. 9:24-27 - 9/21/2008 9:11:55 AM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11506
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: online
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In an attempt to consolidate for the purpose of effective moderation we have created a One Stop thread for the topic of Preterism. Therefore, this thread on the topic is being closed.
Please continue your discussion in the One Stop Thread.
Here is the link:
CLICK HERE
Thank you!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
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