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DIVINATION - 2/4/2009 10:38:27 PM
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Godhead
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DIVINATION
A prediction uttered under divine inspiration
The art or gift of prophecy (or the pretense of prophecy) by supernatural means
And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus: Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. (Acts 13:6-8)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Matthew Henry
This Elymas was a pretender to the gift of prophecy, a sorcerer, a false-prophet - one that would be taken for a divine, because he was skilled in the arts of divination; he was a conjurer, and took on him to tell people their fortune, and to discover things lost, and probably was in league with the devil for this purpose.
As Christians we would shudder at such a practice and pretence in the church, and yet it is rampant. A common practice, and a very popular one. It beguiles the people and betrays the Lord that bought us. Many who have come into the church think it a practice bestowed upon the practitioner by the Holy Ghost. So they themselves receive the gift not knowing that they are giving themselves over to sorcery and divination. They really and honestly believe that it is the work of God. That's why they will be so surprised on the day of judgement.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? (Matthew 7:22)
Hear their plea and defense, "Have we not prophesied in thy name?" So we see the power of Satan to deceive, so much so that they who are under his power and influence, think it the power of God.
Jesus died on the cross for our sins, to cleans us form our sins, to make the unclean clean. That only applies to sinners, not sorcery. Using the name of Jesus to practice sorcery does not cleans the act, or in any way make it acceptable unto our Lord. Read Matthew 7:22 and tremble for your lives. Fear the wrath to come. Repent!
_____________________________
But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
(Heb 7:24-25)
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/4/2009 10:55:56 PM
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SnapDraggin
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1) How do you know you are not under the influence of Satan?
2) What would make your answer different from other answers?
3) What makes your last three sentences different from a fanatical Muslim suicide bomber?
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/5/2009 8:45:52 AM
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DougHorton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SnapDraggin
1) How do you know you are not under the influence of Satan?
That is always a possibility, but when you are in agreement with scriptures, it is unlikely. The OP agrees with scripture.
quote:
2) What would make your answer different from other answers?
Hmmm... Maybe the agreement with scripture.
quote:
3) What makes your last three sentences different from a fanatical Muslim suicide bomber?
Did you mean the last six sentences?
6. Jesus died on the cross for our sins, to cleans us from our sins, to make the unclean clean.
No fanatical Muslim would say that. Trust me.
5. That only applies to sinners, not sorcery.
A Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or Atheist could say that. However, I would rephrase it to "That only applies to sinners, not sin." Certainly a sorcerer may be forgiven.
4. Using the name of Jesus to practice sorcery does not cleans the act, or in any way make it acceptable unto our Lord.
No fanatical Muslim would say that.
3. Read Matthew 7:22 and tremble for your lives.
No fanatical Muslim would say that. A bomber might tell his/her victims to tremble for their lives, but that would warn them and give them a chance to stop him/her. Most likely he/she would say, "Allah akbar!"
2. Fear the wrath to come.
A fanatical Muslim would say that, but so would a lot of people. Most of God's prophets said something similar.
1. Repent!
A fanatical Muslim suicide bomber would not say that. He/she does not call people to repentance.
< Message edited by DougHorton -- 2/5/2009 8:53:04 AM >
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/5/2009 9:13:27 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
As Christians we would shudder at such a practice and pretence in the church, and yet it is rampant. A common practice, and a very popular one. It beguiles the people and betrays the Lord that bought us. Many who have come into the church think it a practice bestowed upon the practitioner by the Holy Ghost. So they themselves receive the gift not knowing that they are giving themselves over to sorcery and divination. They really and honestly believe that it is the work of God. That's why they will be so surprised on the day of judgement.
So Godhead you think Agabus was a soccere, and the Apostles that responded to him are what; stupid, sinners, ignorant?
(Act 11:28) And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
(Act 11:29) Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
(Act 11:30) Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.
Seems like a mighty harsh condemnation of the Apostles.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/5/2009 9:31:45 AM
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DougHorton
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Scripture clearly declares Agabus a prophet, not a sorcerer. He was not involved in telling fortunes, or telling this person whom to marry or that person what job to take. There is a rather glaring difference.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/5/2009 11:33:51 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
Scripture clearly declares Agabus a prophet, not a sorcerer. He was not involved in telling fortunes, or telling this person whom to marry or that person what job to take. There is a rather glaring difference.
I agree with you, but Godhead did not make the distinction, he just seems to condemn all prophecies out of hand, and so that would include Agabus.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/5/2009 12:43:47 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
As Christians we would shudder at such a practice and pretence in the church, and yet it is rampant. A common practice, and a very popular one. It beguiles the people and betrays the Lord that bought us. Many who have come into the church think it a practice bestowed upon the practitioner by the Holy Ghost. So they themselves receive the gift not knowing that they are giving themselves over to sorcery and divination. They really and honestly believe that it is the work of God. That's why they will be so surprised on the day of judgement.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? (Matthew 7:22)
this, from the OP, would lend me to believe that he is not addressing sorcery among pagans as much as he is addressing what he believes are Christians who are prophysying in ignorance under the power of a spirit that is not holy.
Correct me if I'm wrong.................
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/5/2009 1:40:34 PM
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Lapidoth
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I think I understood the intent of the OP, which I agree with.
We were discussing this today at our prayer/study.
We referenced Matthew 24:4-5
4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that
no man deceive you."
5. "For many shall come in my name, {using "Jesus," etc.}
saying, I am Christ (anointed); and shall deceive many."
What is going on in the church world today?
Basically in TV land, but that has infiltrated many churches.
Many are coming in the name of Jesus and claiming they
are "anointed." And they are deceiving many of the gullible.
The word Christ is Greek for the Hebrew Messiah which in English
is "anoint." There are many who even claim to be Christ. That is
an obvious "Look Out!" But so many are saying I am "christ (anointed)."
That's more subtle to the biblically ignorant. Just because we get
saved doesn't me we are no longer ignorant.
Later He says, (v.11)---"And many false prophets shall rise, and
shall deceive many."
So, here's another group we have to look out for.
Why else would people fly half way around the globe to "come
and get some?" The Holy Spirit is right here where I am at
and right there where everyone else are.
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 2/5/2009 1:56:45 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/5/2009 1:43:18 PM
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DougHorton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
As Christians we would shudder at such a practice and pretence in the church, and yet it is rampant. A common practice, and a very popular one. It beguiles the people and betrays the Lord that bought us. Many who have come into the church think it a practice bestowed upon the practitioner by the Holy Ghost. So they themselves receive the gift not knowing that they are giving themselves over to sorcery and divination. They really and honestly believe that it is the work of God. That's why they will be so surprised on the day of judgement.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? (Matthew 7:22)
this, from the OP, would lend me to believe that he is not addressing sorcery among pagans as much as he is addressing what he believes are Christians who are prophysying in ignorance under the power of a spirit that is not holy.
Correct me if I'm wrong.................
I would agree. In addition, I see the issue of power being abused because one person claims a personal revelation outside of scripture or not in agreement with scripture.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/5/2009 1:48:43 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Later He says, (v.11)---"And many false prophets shall rise, and
shall deceive many."
So, here's another group we have to look out for.
Why else would people fly half way around the globe to "come
and get some?" The Holy Spirit is right here where I am at
and where there where everyone else are.
First I do not even conside the TV freaks part of the Church, no matter what they claim. And that has crept into many Churches.
But should we not be careful and use our God given discernment to distinquish between what is phoney baloney and what may actually be a prophetic utterance (speaking the oracles of God).
I few that many throw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak.
In verse 11 that you mentioned above the admonishment was not agains all who would prophesy, but against "False Prophets".
But that could just be me
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/5/2009 1:49:21 PM
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Lapidoth
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Something simple like "manipulation" comes under
"witchcraft." So the lines may get fine.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/5/2009 1:52:59 PM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Later He says, (v.11)---"And many false prophets shall rise, and
shall deceive many."
So, here's another group we have to look out for.
Why else would people fly half way around the globe to "come
and get some?" The Holy Spirit is right here where I am at
and where there where everyone else are.
First I do not even conside the TV freaks part of the Church, no matter what they claim. And that has crept into many Churches.
But should we not be careful and use our God given discernment to distinquish between what is phoney baloney and what may actually be a prophetic utterance (speaking the oracles of God).
I few that many throw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak.
In verse 11 that you mentioned above the admonishment was not agains all who would prophesy, but against "False Prophets".
But that could just be me
Thanks
RC
I know where you are coming from and I agree with that vantage.
My definition of a "false prophet" is someone (anyone) that draws us
away from the Word of God. Whether in teaching or so-called miracles.
A "true prophet" is someone who calls us back to the Word of God.
So we have to use the Word of God as the magnifying glass to see
which is which. Of course, the Todd Bentleys, etc. are just too blatant
for those who use the Word as their discernment. In other words, they
are just plain obvious................lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/5/2009 1:55:22 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I know where you are coming from and I agree with that vantage.
My definition of a "false prophet" is someone (anyone) that draws us
away from the Word of God. Whether in teaching or so-called miracles.
A "true prophet" is someone who calls us back to the Word of God.
So we have to use the Word of God as the magnifying glass to see
which is which.
Agreed
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/5/2009 4:08:08 PM
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DougHorton
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SnapDraggin's questions may or may not have been rhetorical. Other than that, I think we are all in agreement.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/5/2009 4:24:53 PM
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solarflare
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With you so far...
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/11/2009 6:58:58 AM
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Godhead
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quote:
So Godhead you think Agabus was a soccere, and the Apostles that responded to him are what; stupid, sinners, ignorant?
Seems like a mighty harsh condemnation of the Apostles.
Thanks
RC
Not the Apostles, but they who practice divination in the churches today. People like the girl spoken of in Acts 16:16-17.
And as we went to prayer, it happened that a certain girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much gain by divining. The same followed Paul and us and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the Most High God, who are announcing to us the way of salvation. (Act 16:16-17)
See people with an evil spirit can proclaim the truth when it suits their purpose. Its never good when the demoniacally possessed mention the name of our Lord. It can only be for sinister purposes, like beguiling the people. Paul was not beguiled. He knew the difference between a spirit of divination and the Holy Spirit. My warning still stands. Hey when Jesus returns tell him all about it. "Lord Lord, did we not prophesy in your name!"
They who oppose the truth, only oppose themselves!
_____________________________
But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
(Heb 7:24-25)
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/11/2009 10:16:50 AM
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solarflare
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Without a doubt, there are those who proclaim the truth through an evil spirit.
Do you believe that there are people who proclaim the truth through the Holy Spirit?
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/11/2009 6:46:11 PM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 1070
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quote:
The art or gift of prophecy (or the pretense of prophecy) by supernatural means
It's interesting to see how virulent people get when you call them on an unbiblical practice that they "felt led" to do. If you mention Balaam's "leading," the post gets deleted! I like the way one Christian speaker puts it -- "You do what you 'feel led' to do, and I'll do what the Bible commands."
We have such an incredible capacity for self-deception. May the God of truth have mercy upon us.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/11/2009 9:30:31 PM
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Godhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
Without a doubt, there are those who proclaim the truth through an evil spirit.
Do you believe that there are people who proclaim the truth through the Holy Spirit?
Not in the direct sense, the Holy Spirit does not work like that anymore and it is they who want Him to, who have fallen into a great error. Sure the early church had a special work from the Holy Ghost. He spoke to them, pored out the love of God in their hearts, gave them the ability to speak the great things of God in many different languages. This He does no more. The early churches witness was through the Holy Spirit, ours is through the scriptures, which are a more sure word of prophecy. Anyone who claims to have certain gifts from God, or receiving direct messages from God, are either lying or posses by demons. From what I have witnessed myself, there is a large amount of both. The Holy Spirit works through the medium of the scriptures, by preaching the word. The holy Spirit still works but not openly, not with great manifestations like in the Early church. He does not need too. The Gospel has been long since established on Earth. People don't want this and so seek after the supernatural. We are not seeing the great things that happened in the Early church in the Pentecostal and charismatic church. We only have emotional experiences, and occult practices such as telling some bodies fortune and babbling nonsense. The lame are not being healed, the deaf are not hearing, the dead are not being raised, as was done by Peter and Paul. This was to prove that they really had the Holy spirit and were from God. This new wave of the so called Holy Spirit is Satan, working to beguile the church and has succeeded to an incredible degree. Simply because he give the people what they want and tells them what they want to hear.
_____________________________
But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
(Heb 7:24-25)
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/12/2009 9:17:31 AM
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DougHorton
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Just a note. I am not aware of any of the Reformers who was a Cecessionist. Luther certainly believed in the present supernatural work of the Holy Spirit as did Calvin.
Yes, the Holy Spirit worked wonders in the early church to authenticate the message. Yes, we have the scriptures to speak to us today.
However, there is still well over half the world's population who need to have the message authenticated and the Holy Spirit is still working wonders among them.
That issue should be separated from the the fact that people speak in the name of God teaching blasphemy and for their own gain.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/12/2009 10:31:54 AM
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solarflare
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quote:
the Holy Spirit does not work like that anymore. He does not need too.
OK, so what you are saying then, is that anything that happens out of the ordinary, that is out of our capabilities, is satanic? If I understand you correctly, the Holy Spirit only works through Scripture? How does that happen exactly, I'm a little confused on exactly how you are interpreting things.......if I understand you, you are now saying that what you have written here is by the Holy Spirit, yet you state in the same breath, that that would be divination. How? Well, since Scripture nowhere states that there will be a cessation of the gifts of the Spirit, a person who assumes or believes they have been told differently...actually puts themself in the position of having a belief not in line with Scripture.
I know that most people who believe the Holy Spirit has now entered a state of dormancy, cite the verse from I Cor 13...v. 8, but that verse also
states that where there is knowledge, it will pass away. So, strictly from a logical point of view, why would one pass away and not the other if both are written of together?
Because, if what you are saying is really so, then, none of us dare even write what you wrote....we could be under the control of an evil spirit. Best to just stay home and read the Bible and not have any opinion.
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit so that Christians would have power...to live for and to witness for Him. Oh yes, there will be those who will be turned away, because that is in Scripture...however, I would think that would apply to those who, like a sorcerer or charlatan, use the name of the Lord Jesus for monetary profit and to control people.
Paul says that he is alive to Christ and dead to himself. How can an ordinary human being live that way unless filled with the Spirit of God? I know I can't.
I don't need personal prophecy to live...in fact, I don't agree with most of it...it is nothing more than fortune telling...however, the Holy Spirit is not a retired agent of God. His work is ongoing...first, through Scripture and then through the lives of those who belong to Him. The rest? Well, they will answer to God.
< Message edited by solarflare -- 2/12/2009 1:41:18 PM >
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/12/2009 1:12:59 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 7812
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
Without a doubt, there are those who proclaim the truth through an evil spirit.
Do you believe that there are people who proclaim the truth through the Holy Spirit?
Not in the direct sense, the Holy Spirit does not work like that anymore and it is they who want Him to, who have fallen into a great error. Sure the early church had a special work from the Holy Ghost. He spoke to them, pored out the love of God in their hearts, gave them the ability to speak the great things of God in many different languages. This He does no more.
What a sack of, well, what a crock. You are negating the Scriptures and the Ministry of the Holy Spirit.
I truly feel sad for those of you who believe that to be true.
What a life of Joy, holiness, and peace you must be missing, as one of His main job descriptuion is "Comforter"
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/13/2009 10:40:16 AM
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csl7037
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
quote:
The art or gift of prophecy (or the pretense of prophecy) by supernatural means
It's interesting to see how virulent people get when you call them on an unbiblical practice that they "felt led" to do. If you mention Balaam's "leading," the post gets deleted! I like the way one Christian speaker puts it -- "You do what you 'feel led' to do, and I'll do what the Bible commands."
We have such an incredible capacity for self-deception. May the God of truth have mercy upon us.
Well put! Yes, there's witchcraft in the Church that many can't or wont bother to discern against scripture. Some are blatant and obvious to anyone with eyes - Todd Bentley, for example. We've been down that road here. But I think the greater danger is in the desensitization we see in our culture, outside the church, with regard to the supernatural and how that creeps into our daily lives and into the church if we let it. I'm on a tirade to get Pokemon and Bakugan banned from my kids' Baptist school - not really, but I want to be. I don't want to go to a legalistic school that throws out toys. I want the "Christian" parents of my kids' friends to wake up and get a clue!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
Without a doubt, there are those who proclaim the truth through an evil spirit.
Do you believe that there are people who proclaim the truth through the Holy Spirit?
Not in the direct sense, the Holy Spirit does not work like that anymore and it is they who want Him to, who have fallen into a great error.
The issue Godhead raises is about halfway valid...halfway to this point. Godhead, I'll let RCJames and others argue this with you. It's simply too preposterous and unBiblical for me to have the patience for. You're sadly misled yourself. Good luck with your powerless little god but mine is the King of the Universe who moves and works in the simple and in the miraculous and, yes, in the prophetic every day. If not, why would Satan bother counterfeiting?
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RE: DIVINATION - 2/13/2009 2:58:29 PM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 1070
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
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quote:
I'm on a tirade to get Pokemon and Bakugan banned from my kids' Baptist school - not really, but I want to be.
OK, I can see that you understand my indirect reference! Most Christians find it possible to worship at the state church of America. Apparently, you don't.
Why do so many Christians turn to divination, and turn off their brains? Perhaps, because their minds have been turned against God in ways too deep and subtle to notice, becoming enemy territory. I would like to think that, the more accurately we learn to think, the less we will be scanning various steaming entrails seeking "signs" and "leadings." I really want to see my kids think and live better than I have hitherto. They are chaster and more wholesome than I was at their ages, and far happier. I still attend a charismatic church with Reformed leanings, but my oldest two are full-scale Presbyterians!
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Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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