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Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 12:30:20 PM
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supernova1976
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The more I study the Bible the more contradictions I see. All over the place. We are suppose to be peacemakers, yet we are instructed to wage war. We are told all who believe are saved, yet we are at risk for losing that salvation. We are told that God can change his mind at any time, then we are told that God is the unchangable. I am so confused. Is it possible at all that someone, a man made some kind of error in that book ever? I love God, and I want to obey him at all times, but I would be lying if I didn't see there were a lot of things that can be interpreted a certain way. God says those who are rich have been made rich by him, God also says those who are poor are the one's who inherit the kingdom of God. It says God will never leave you nor forsake you, yet we have books out on how to deal with when God removes himself from us. WIthout getting emotional if this is a sensitive subject with you, and you feel the need to put me in my place or tell me that I am being attacked by the devil, please consider that I am really a follower of God and have heard those arguments before. Is it possible at all that we could be wrong about everything we believe? and if so....... has anyone ever experienced a crisis of faith?
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 12:45:52 PM
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raivyne
Posts: 941
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I think we've all seen a crisis of faith.
In regards to the bible - we often find what we are looking for in the bible. It could be internal conflict that is causing you to see conflict in God's word.
Perhaps if you had some specific examples of what you are seeing as conflict we could better help you.
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 1:02:23 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4288
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supernova1976, I would humbly suggest you study "how to read the bible." There are actual contexts and historical relevance that clears up any contradictions you may perceive.
A life application bible or a bible companion could help with some of your questions.
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 1:02:53 PM
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LCannon
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You're right, raivyne. When one comes to anything with our limited imagination of concerns we'll be sorely disappointed because our limitations become the level of His workings in our lives.
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"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 1:11:28 PM
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raivyne
Posts: 941
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LCannon
You're right, raivyne. When one comes to anything with our limited imagination of concerns we'll be sorely disappointed because our limitations become the level of His workings in our lives.
Right! God is only limited by us (or how we perceive Him and/or what He can do). Proverbs 3:5: Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
but the OP wasn't speaking of limits, but our minds not only limit him - they limit our understanding of His word. Supernova I'm not sure what sort of bible translation you have doinkdom has some good points that may help you out of your crisis.
< Message edited by raivyne -- 9/22/2008 1:18:24 PM >
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 1:18:51 PM
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Rick4Him
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super,
I believe you are truly being drawn by the Holy Spirit to engage in His word more. I too felt the apparant contradictions early in my Christian life, but let me assure you, God will not contradict himself. You can trust the entire Bible as infallible.
We have passages that tell us to strive on and the hold steadfast. At the surface it seems like He is contradicting, but in reality He is telling to be both. We must read the Bible in proper context and in view of the proper genre.
A good book to read on this is "reading the Bible for all it's worth" by Fee
Rick
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 3:03:54 PM
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mvic
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Hi Supernova,
Welcome to the Forums.
What is the Bible? It is a collection of writings; some are stories telling us of the creation and who God is, some are poems and songs and some are records of events that happened - e.g. the New Testament. These writings have been written by different people, over a period of time, in various languages. The writers did not have the benefit of recording equipment as we have now; so many of the events recorded are either gathered through word of mouth or from memories - years after they happened. And memories do fade with time don't they?
Considering all of the above, and considering the many translations from the originals to our modern day English, I'm sure you'll agree there's plenty of room for misundesrtanding, misinterpretations and actual loss in translation.
This is not to say the Bible is not inspired by God - of course it is. But I believe that it doesn't follow that every word in the Bible was written by God. The writers were inspired by God very much in the same way as modern Christian writers are inspired by God.
The Bible is essentially a book of Faith. We use it as the cornerstone upon which to base our beliefs in the God we love and trust.
And that's why it contains what appear to us to be contradictions.
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 3:11:44 PM
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TJStarfire
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quote:
ORIGINAL: supernova1976
The more I study the Bible the more contradictions I see. All over the place.
There is a way or POV from which to read the scriptures without any contradictions, the holy spirit has to lead you there.
Pray for understanding and listen to the still small voice.
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 3:14:21 PM
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raivyne
Posts: 941
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I personally don't see contradictions in the bible (at one time I did). I actually find it to be very cohesive.
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 3:33:02 PM
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supernova1976
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Thank you all so much for replying. This place is amazing. I see there are real Christians out there that are imitating Chirst like love to others like me. I just feel so distraught and I am questioning so many things. I feel as if the Bible is our road map, our guide as Christian, are place of armor and protection and our pathway for the kingdom of God, yet with all these directions, I never know when I am doing his will and when I am part of this world. I am 32 and I have been a believer since I was a child. I express to my children how much God loves them everyday. Yet, in my heart of hearts, I feel I am a hyporcite. I am a sinner, and I can't always keep his commands. I hate being a human, and I very much want out of this world which places us in pain, temptations, diseases, death, loss and the need to fit in with the Christians in our own congregations. I see things in churches today that are so offensive I wonder if Christianity is becoming a place of entertainment. What is someone like me to do? thank you for all your suggestions and reccomendations and books to read. That really helps.
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 3:39:37 PM
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raivyne
Posts: 941
Joined: 8/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: supernova1976
What is someone like me to do?
I had issues with churches here and there over several years. Sometimes you have to shop around to find one that fits. Find a church you like and plant yourself in it. Look for a bible study class too. Don't be afraid to approach your pastor or other elders of the church with your questions and concerns. We cannot (should not anyway IMO) make our journey alone, we need other Christians in our lives. Most of all we need Christ though. :)
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 3:44:51 PM
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kmangel
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If you can muster up the time to read one more book, I have one that may shed some light about trying to live the Christ life. It's called Gracewalk by Steve McVey. A lot of people get very discouraged trying to live for God. What God wants is for Jesus to live His life through you--there's a world of difference between the two. One way will make your burden heavy and the other way will make your burden light.
_____________________________
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
--Mark Twain
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 4:00:55 PM
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rofaith
Posts: 61
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From: rofaith, a believer
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SuperNova1976.... some insights in-line...
All over the place. We are supposed to be peacemakers, yet we are instructed to wage war.
Reply: Peacemakers: Big difference between those who say they want peace and an actual peacemaker. A peacemaker is not one who prevents war but engages conflict to find peace between two or more persons who are in conflict. It takes the power of the Holy Spirit to be an actual peacemaker. It's hard work and requires discernment along with giving away the grace that has been given to you by God in Christ. IMHO, that is what is addressed in the "Blessed are the peacemakers" in the Beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount documented by the apostle Matthew in his account in the Gospel of Matthew. So, being a peacemaker is not preventing war in the sense that you posited. Psalm 72, although it's context is speaking of Jesus Christ, can actually be interpreted as valid reasons for war. They involve defending the weak, the oppressed, the orphan etc. check it out.
We are told all who believe are saved, yet we are at risk for losing that salvation.
Reply: I know there is controversy and that some churches preach the heresy of losing your salvation but after listening and reading Chuck Missler's (Koinania(Sp) House) view on this I have chosen to believe that my salvation is immutable. In the meantime, though, Jesus Christ stated clearly that we should give away what we have been given to others. Essentially, to lose our life for His sake, for others. I have found that as I do this, my significance to God is amplified in that He makes it clear to me just how wonderful His love is for me and has always been thus deepening my experience and giving me a reference point in my life for the future for when(not if) my faith is challenged. So, give your life away....in His Name for others... you will find this intimacy with God's heart as well.
We are told that God can change his mind at any time, then we are told that God is the unchangeable
Reply: God's character and love for mankind and for us as individuals will never change. Jesus Christ indeed is the same yesterday, today and forever. Yes, God did change His mind about things and reconsidered His actions in the OT i.e. with Moses. He did this because Moses was humble enough such that he could engage with God intimately. Through this relationship God could demonstrate His huge love, grace and mercy by allowing a set of circumstances to play out which gave us visibility into God's thinking process with regard to His mercy, where He appears to actually change His mind. I think it's wonderful that God would actually take the risk of allowing us to see His heart in this. An intimate relationship with God comes through not only reading His Word and choosing to believe, but actually, developing a relationship with God. It takes work. Many preachers I have listened to say that developing a relationship with God through Christ is different than developing a relationship with others since He speaks through His Word alone which is immutable. That is partially correct. The Holy Spirit though after you realize your sinfulness and God's mercy towards you and through intimacy developed in prayer, Bible reading and journaling your thoughts, feelings, experiences and writing scriptures/notes/prayers to God in that journal on a daily basis, will provide for an experience with God where intimacy can be found for you. Once you get an experience with God like this and comparing what you experience with God's Word, you will understand the scriptures much, much better. In this sense, you will discover that reading the bible in context is not just a one dimensional exercise, but a multi-dimensional view, by virtue of you experiencing God's love, mercy and grace for you during this spiritual workout. Check it out, it's great. God is always merciful, good, faithful and His justice is always perfect. That was the reason for Jesus Christ becoming the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.
It says God will never leave you nor forsake you, yet we have books out on how to deal with when God removes himself from us.
Reply: Lots of books say this, or maybe you misinterpreted? God, indeed never leaves us nor forsakes us. Our emotional experience notwithstanding. Emotions are not really a trustworthy barometer for really anything. They are just an experience, that's all. Trouble is, for some emotions, when connected to our limited intellect can give us the impression that God has abandoned us, even when he resides in our heart in the form of the Holy Spirit. Wow on that. God may withdraw from your visibility in order for you to literally cling to what He has said in His Word by faith. Remember, the just shall live by faith. We walk by faith and not by sight. Sight to me means, eyes, emotions, intellect etc. I have found myself literally clinging to God's Word to keep my sanity in this broken world we live in, filled with broken people. Cling to His Word as if your life depended on it. Because it does.
SuperNova1976... I know you are a believer and just as Christ believes in you, so do I. You are going to have to "faith" your way through this even as Noah and Jonah did.... you are going to have to choose to believe rather than depend on anything else but God's Word. In short, it's a test by God to grow you out of depending on your self in the form of your intellect, emotions and memories for truth. Read Hebrews 11 for others who chose to believe there way through things. It cost them... and it will cost you. Perhaps, it will cost you the loss of comfort of depending on what you see and other things that you have been used to depending on to discern God's love, grace and mercy for you. So, as others have stated, bury yourself in the Word. Find a Bible teacher you trust. I chose Chuck Missler whom I have found answered a lot of my questions and gave me an even more profound confidence in God and His Word. So, get into it. It's the best investment you could ever, ever make. God Bless... EMail me any time..... rofaith@aol.com...Chris
< Message edited by rofaith -- 9/23/2008 6:34:58 PM >
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There is no other name....
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 4:05:29 PM
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supernova1976
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rofaith.....................you are amazing! Thank you for writing all that. You have a lot of love and our actions even on forums to reach those across the world that are struggling will have a reward in heaven. Your post makes me want to cry. Cry out to God...good tears and enlightening ones.
P.S. I have tried to upload my photo a few times and it always says file to large! lol what do I do?
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 4:10:33 PM
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raivyne
Posts: 941
Joined: 8/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: supernova1976
rofaith.....................you are amazing! Thank you for writing all that. You have a lot of love and our actions even on forums to reach those across the world that are struggling will have a reward in heaven. Your post makes me want to cry. Cry out to God...good tears and enlightening ones.
P.S. I have tried to upload my photo a few times and it always says file to large! lol what do I do?
you can resize it in most photo programs. windows photo editor for one.
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 4:57:58 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
The more I study the Bible the more contradictions I see. All over the place
If you can accept that the gospels are complimentary to each other and that God inspired these 4 books about the historical Jesus to be like 4 witnesses who all must be heard to receive the complete account of Jesus it overcomes many of the apparent contradictions.
All the other supposed contradictions have an answer if you are motivated to search them out and if you are willing to give the bible the benefit of the doubt.
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 6:30:13 PM
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URForgiven
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There are no contradictions in the Bible...there are only gaps in my understanding.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 7:04:25 PM
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raivyne
Posts: 941
Joined: 8/28/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
There are no contradictions in the Bible...there are only gaps in my understanding.
Peace
I like that!
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 7:33:37 PM
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Juda7
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Try reading it in context my dear. The more you read, study and seek God for understanding you will find that it is not in contradiction with the whole of the bible.
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I am so AGAINST the "New Apostolic Reformation" heresy!
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/22/2008 8:04:47 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
Is it possible at all that we could be wrong about everything we believe? and if so....... has anyone ever experienced a crisis of faith?
Of course it's possible but my view is the universe had to be created by God and if God created us he would communicate with us in some way.
The bible is the only credible thing that claims to come from God and all things considered i have concluded that it must have been inspired by God even though your concerns are well founded.
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/24/2008 10:34:07 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4470
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quote:
ORIGINAL: supernova1976
rofaith.....................you are amazing! Thank you for writing all that. You have a lot of love and our actions even on forums to reach those across the world that are struggling will have a reward in heaven. Your post makes me want to cry. Cry out to God...good tears and enlightening ones.
P.S. I have tried to upload my photo a few times and it always says file to large! lol what do I do?
You have to have 50 posts in order to use your own avatar. I think you can use the Crosswalk avatars for now, though.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/26/2008 3:38:35 PM
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terryjohn
Posts: 467
Joined: 3/23/2007
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There are as Peter says many things that are hard for us to understand and if it were a matter of learning then we could make firm our salvation but it is not. It is about faith and relationship through and through with Christ Himself.
Now there have been many, many more intelligent men and women than I, but I too have found in Christ and not Scripture real understanding. That is not to take away anything from Scripture but without faith in and love Christ, and His Spirit, Scripture is meaningless. I am then sure that if you meditate on Scripture with Chirst you will being to see what we could tell you openly but not accept.
There really is no conflict in what you say and I fear the answers you already know. I make it a habbit of trying to meditate on things God has shown me and in dialogue with Christ Himself, I am lead to an understanding. Know if I were to simply apply logic I would be left frustrated and so I should be for I have attempted to leave Chirst out of the picture while I distort the gospel to fit my own understanding.
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RE: Crisis of faith - 9/26/2008 5:50:13 PM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 719
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From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
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quote:
I express to my children how much God loves them everyday. Yet, in my heart of hearts, I feel I am a hyporcite. I am a sinner, and I can't always keep his commands. I hate being a human, and I very much want out of this world which places us in pain, temptations, diseases, death, loss and the need to fit in with the Christians in our own congregations. I see things in churches today that are so offensive I wonder if Christianity is becoming a place of entertainment. What is someone like me to do?
Consider home schooling. That will keep you too busy and engaged with demanding, and rewarding, real-world ministry to worry about what anyone else is doing!
(OK, that's my one-size recommendation, so take it with a very large grain of salt.)
SERIOUSLY, though -- God is at work, and will continue to work, in your life. Black moods tend to be transient, unless we really want to wallow in them. Every season of testing has a conclusion. It does our kids good to see us wrestling with real-world mood swings, disappointments, and so on, yet persevering by the grace of God. When my oldest daughter was seven she confess -- "sometimes the devil puts the thought in my mind that I hate God." We had a quiet conversation -- I told her that sometimes I also really disagreed with the way God did things. Vast relief, big hug.
Of course you're a sinner. Why do you think Jesus had to die for you? And yes, my church has some really nasty skeletons in the closet. So does yours. The miracle is, that God dwells with us, and uses us for His glory, fallen though we are.
Hey, I'm one of many who are praying for you. As Jesus told Peter, "And when thou are converted, strengthen thou thy brethren." When you successfully get through this season of testing, remember to be kind to those who are undergoing their own trials.
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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