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Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 1/30/2008 4:01:05 PM
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notmycity
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Church as the so-called bride of Christ?
Hi,
Many of us have been taught this, and yet I find no such teaching in the Scriptures.
I thought I’d toss it out to see if and what turns up.
Thank you.
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 1/30/2008 4:12:43 PM
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JimboFletch
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The Church is the Bride of Christ.
He who has the bride is the bridegroom.
What's to discuss?
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 1/30/2008 4:21:43 PM
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CherishedbyGod
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Is it true the church was brought forth from the spear-pierced side of Jesus?
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~I would love for you to come and learn about Jesus of Nazareth with me in the Writer's Roundtable Folder~
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 1/30/2008 4:43:42 PM
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BookerG
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Ephesians 5:25, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. . .31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church."
Revelation 19:7, "Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready."
< Message edited by BookerG -- 1/30/2008 5:26:38 PM >
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 1/30/2008 5:47:07 PM
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notmycity
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Here's what Revelation says:
Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...(KJV)
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 1/30/2008 6:06:37 PM
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ClintonPI
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Here are a few other verses to look up: 2Co 11:2; Eph 5:23-32; Rev 19:7,8. Hope that helps.
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 1/30/2008 6:17:51 PM
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A_crucified_man
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2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:23-32, Revelation 19:7-8; 21:9-10 ; 22:17.
Revelation 19:9 also mentions the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
Romans 7:2-3 also presents the believer as married to Christ.
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Derek
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 1/31/2008 6:17:58 PM
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notmycity
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Can anyone show me where the church is NAMED the BRIDE?
Thanks.
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/2/2008 11:58:09 PM
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Ezra
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NMC:
In Scripture, the bride is supposed to be a chaste virgin who is espoused or betrothed to her future husband. That is precisely what Paul reveals in 2 Cor. 11:2 and Romans 7:4.
The Church is called the Lamb's wife (Rev. 19:7), and in order to become a wife, she must first be a bride.
The New Jerusalem, the home of the saints, is metaphorically called "the bride, the Lamb's wife" since Christ is not married to a city, but the inhabitants thereof (Rev. 21:9,10).
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/3/2008 12:52:12 AM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
NMC:
In Scripture, the bride is supposed to be a chaste virgin who is espoused or betrothed to her future husband. That is precisely what Paul reveals in 2 Cor. 11:2 and Romans 7:4.
The Church is called the Lamb's wife (Rev. 19:7), and in order to become a wife, she must first be a bride.
The New Jerusalem, the home of the saints, is metaphorically called "the bride, the Lamb's wife" since Christ is not married to a city, but the inhabitants thereof (Rev. 21:9,10).
Thanks Ezra,
I’ve always seen your previous posts as completely Scriptural. However, the only occurrences of “church” (ekklesia) in Revelation are in chapters 1-3, and 22:16. While the English in Revelation 21 suffices, comparing the Greek helps with some of the confusion. (Note: All Greek definitions via the Strongs’.)
Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...
Regarding Romans 7:4, “married” (ginomai) also means “be assembled”, and compare to “gameo” meaning “to wed”, which is not used in this passage
Rom 7:4
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to (ginomai) another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Regarding 2 Cor 11:2, please compare that to:
1 Cor 6:15-17
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
2 Cor 11:2
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Consider the Greek words' other meanings when compared to 1 Cor 6:15-17:
2 Cor 11:2
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have [joined] you to one [Man] (Christ), that I may present a chaste virgin to Christ. ("you" and "as" are added words)
It’s also very interesting to note the same Greek word for virgin described the 144,000:
Rev 14:3-4
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
This used to be a “secondary” issue when we believed there was such a thing. Please search the Scriptures and you will see the church, disciples, saints, etc., are never referred to as “the bride [or] the Lamb's wife.”
There’s much more to follow regarding the other clear doctrinal errors of this very popular teaching, and we need to be like the men of Berea with this and every other teaching. Shall we discuss it a little more please?
For now, please consider the many numerous times the church is referred to as Christ’s body, not His bride.
Thank you Brother.
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/3/2008 11:04:17 AM
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notmycity
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I had forgotten to mention that "bridal theology" seems to have its roots in the Roman church if anyone cares to do a search for so-called "saints" Ambrose and Bernard (not the dog necessarily).
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/3/2008 3:00:59 PM
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Ezra
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NMC:
Let's focus on Rev. 21:9,10
1. The apostle John is shown "the bride, the Lamb's wife"
2. The heavenly city New Jerusalem is called "the bride, the Lamb's wife"
If we take this description as literal, it makes no spiritual sense. But if we take this as a metonymy, it makes perfect sense.
A metonymy is a figure of speech that consists of the use of the name of one object or concept for that of another to which it is related, or of which it is a part, as “scepter” for “sovereignty,” or “the bottle” for “strong drink,” or “count heads (or noses)” for “count people.”
It is also a figure of speech in which one word or phrase is substituted for another with which it is closely associated, as in the use of Washington for the United States government or of the sword for military power.
Metonymy is from the Gk. metonymia, lit. "a change of name," from meta- "change" (see meta-) + onyma, dial. of onoma "name" (see name). Thus it is a figure in which an attribute or adjunct is substituted for the thing meant ("head" for "cattle," etc.).
How do we know that the bride, the Lamb's wife, is really a term for the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem? The answer is in Hebrews 12:22-24:
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly AND CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel".
Notice that the Heavenly Jerusalem (where God and Christ dwell) is also where God places the Church of the firstborn, and thus the Church, which is Christ's Body, also becomes the bride and wife of the Lamb. That Christ regards the Church as His wife is clear from Ephesians 5:23-33, where this is called "a great mystery" (v. 32).
Since Christ cannot be spiritually married to a city, He must be married to those who inhabit that city. While we may not fully understand the meaning of this marriage relationship, we know without the shadow of a doubt that just as a husband and wife are metaphorically "one flesh", Christ and His Church are spiritually one Body. This union is perfectly expressed as a marriage.
John the Baptist called Christ the Bridegroom (Jn. 3:29) and Christ calls Himself the Bridegroom also (Lk. 5:33-35). Where there is a bridegroom, there must of necessity be a bride, and this is certainly not a reference to the 144,000.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/3/2008 3:06:47 PM
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Aphobos
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Well done, Ezra. Very well done, indeed.
Sincerely,
~Aphobos
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/3/2008 9:15:08 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
If we take this description as literal, it makes no spiritual sense. But if we take this as a metonymy, it makes perfect sense.
Thanks Ezra.
We do believe the description is literal, and hopefully we would agree that the gospel makes “[no sense”]. Please note especially the measurements given. The holy city is huge.
I’m sorry if you misunderstood my reference to the 144,000. They are not “the bride” either.
Regarding Hebrews 12:22-24:
Heb 12:22-23
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Can we agree that “an innumerable company of angels” is not part of the church?
Speaking of Ephesians 5, please note:
Eph 5:23-6:24
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 FOR WE ARE MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 THIS IS A GREAT MYSTERY: BUT I SPEAK CONCERNING CHRIST AND THE CHURCH.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Please note we are called “members of His body”. Also, if we take away the chapter break that was later added, we see that instruction is given in the above pertaining to relationships, starting with a husband and wife. Though a marriage analogy is clearly used, the church even here isn’t called a bride, but rather “His body”, with Christ as Head.
Please compare with:
Rom 12:5
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
(KJV)
1 Cor 6:15-17
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
(KJV)
1 Cor 12:12-14
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
(KJV)
Eph 1:19-23
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
(KJV)
Col 2:18-19
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
(KJV)
I’ve cross-checked “bride” and “bridegroom” with the Greek for those terms and cannot find one example of the church being referred to as a bride.
Does Christ marrying a city “make sense”? No, and yet we have the account in Revelation. Does Christ marrying a huge group of saints make any more “sense”?
It all comes down to faith and belief, does it not?
No wonder Jesus said:
Mark 10:15
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
(KJV)
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/4/2008 2:13:58 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
Ephesians 5:25, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. . .31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church."
Revelation 19:7, "Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready."
Exactly, for those with hearing ears & seeing eyes!
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/4/2008 2:43:24 PM
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mom_of_a_soldier
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The church in its entirety is espoused to Christ. When talking of the church as the bride of Christ, we are talking of a relationship with Jesus while we are still here on earth — a relationship that is so close and spiritually intimate that the best imagery to capture and portray it is that of a bride and groom. And not all of the espoused will press in to that kind of wonderful intimacy and closeness to the heavenly bridegroom.
I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure demotion to Christ. (2 Cor. 11:2-3)
All Christians are betrothed for marriage to Christ. But not all will maintain their sincere and pure devotion to Christ. Some will set their affections on other things over and above Christ, and will thereby become guilty of what the Bible speaks of as, in effect, a spiritual adultery.
The Apostle Paul, who spoke of the church as Christ's intended bride, also in the same epistle pointed that church-bride toward the standard of perfection.
I promised you to one husband, to Christ. (2 Cor. 11:2)
Our prayer is for your perfection. (2 Cor. 13:9)
Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection. (2 Cor. 13:11)
Just my 2 cents worth. Hope I have helped ya...
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If you can’t be a good example, then you’ll just have to be a horrible warning.
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/4/2008 2:51:57 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JoToP
To love Christ is to love his Bride, the Church. To doubt the Bride is to doubt Covenant. Without the Covenant we have no relationship to God through Christ for the Covenant is the stipulation by which we know God, it is the marriage bond between Christ and his people. This has its roots in Old Testament where God represented himself as married to his people, Israel. It is even more so under the New Covenant where Christ has shed his blood for the Church, i.e. all believers. The Romans Catholics did not invent this doctrine, it is whole counsel biblical and was known long before Romanism.
Another excellent and true post!
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/4/2008 7:50:28 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
Notmycity,
I have started a similar thread a while back and agree with you! I'll just read the posts for now, but I'll probably jump in later. Keep it up!! 
Please provide that link if you can. As for any agreement, I’m merely looking to the Scriptures and have no belief apart from God’s written Word.
For most folks who espouse bridal theology (pun intended), the “foundational” verse tends to be 2 Cor 11:2:
Below is the Greek for “espoused” used in this verse (KJV):
Harmozo (har-mod'-zo); from harmos; to join, i.e. (figuratively) to woo (reflexively, to betroth)
Please compare to the other three uses of “espouse” in the NT (all pertaining to Joseph and Mary:
Mnesteuo (mnace-tyoo'-o); from a derivative of 3415; to give a souvenier (engagement present), i.e. betroth.
The above Greek words for “espouse” are different in their meaning and usage.
I have asked that folks refer to Scripture alone to teach this view, so if everyone who posts on this thread could please show me the Scriptures that supposedly teach bridal theology, that would help.
Thank you.
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/4/2008 7:51:55 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1175
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JoToP
To love Christ is to love his Bride, the Church. To doubt the Bride is to doubt Covenant. Without the Covenant we have no relationship to God through Christ for the Covenant is the stipulation by which we know God, it is the marriage bond between Christ and his people. This has its roots in Old Testament where God represented himself as married to his people, Israel. It is even more so under the New Covenant where Christ has shed his blood for the Church, i.e. all believers. The Romans Catholics did not invent this doctrine, it is whole counsel biblical and was known long before Romanism.
Where in the Scriptures please?
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/4/2008 8:03:41 PM
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LBolt
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Amen! Ezra you gave an excellent post as well.
Let's face it, a city takes on the character of those that inhabit that city. New Jerusalem would not be much if it was inhabited by the King and the righteous saints. There are references in the OT which depicts Israel as a bride.
Isa. 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
Jer. 3:14
Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
This links up perfectly with the New Covenant which when you read Jer. 31:31-34 & Heb. 8:8,9,10 etal tells you that the receipients of this covenant is the "House of Israel and the "House of Judah."
All others nations are grafted into the vine...Israel just like in the OT...see Ruth, Rahab and the "mixed multitude" who came out of Egypt.
Regarding the "Bride is only the city of the New Jerusalem and not the Church" teaching this was widely taught by Finis Dake and is unfortunately not sound teaching. Our relationship with Christ is as intimate as marriage between a man and woman. In fact Hosea illustrates this so beautifully when YHWH told him to marry a harlot symbolizing Israel "a whoring after other gods."
Every time Israel backslid she played the part of an unfaithful spouse.
In Ezekiel 16:6-14
6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted F54 in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live. 7 I have caused F55 thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare. 8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine. 9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood F56 from thee, and I anointed thee with oil. 10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. 11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. 12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, F57 and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. 13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. 14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GODn Ezek. 16:6, Israel is depicted as a bride.
This is a beautiful depiction of a Jewish Groom and Bride scene.
Jesus said, I go to prepare a place for you in the gospel of John, which is what a husband in Jewish custom would do in order prepare for his bride. The above scripture in Ezekiel seems to be where Paul referenced
Ephesians 5, involving Christ and the Church.
I can truly say that He love me even though is not much to love! Every time we read the Word of God, we are reading one big love letter!
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/4/2008 8:22:23 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2906
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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OK, before I get scriptural - where are you taking this? What would be the significance of retaining a marriage comparison such as found in Ephesians vs a bridge/bridgegroom comparison? I'm not sure I'm picking up on the distinction or a significant change in interpretation that this would make.
That said, I'm intrigued by the line of thought and know full well how things can get lost in translation. Tell me where you think we're headed with this, and I'll see what I can do to oblige.
BT
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/4/2008 10:34:56 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 242
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Please provide that link if you can. As for any agreement, I’m merely looking to the Scriptures and have no belief apart from God’s written Word.
Try this link
I agree! You will notice I have only stuck with Scripture in my posts. Others have used others opinions, pointed me to websites, and quoted uninspired letters to make their points. Feel free to use any of my points if you'd like.
I'll probably jump in soon........
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