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Advice to a married couple - 10/1/2008 6:27:54 PM
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April75
Posts: 253
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This is about someone I know. I no longer know what to tell her. I am married also but these people are much older than I. The are close to sixty.
The husband has a problem with getting all these credit accounts, loans and cash advances but nothing to show for it. There is nothing brought to the home that was bought. From what the wife said it started off with a cash advance and snow balled to like $7500. Now the husband goes and sets up with a credit counseling agency to take $300 out of the household each month. There are no kids involved and the wife is retired and has a fulltime job.
I'm at my wits end trying to give advice. It's not like she's asking advice all the time but is just talking about the situation.
Can anyone give any Godly and practical advice about this situation? Has anyone ever experience one spouse borrowing money from people and agencies just to pay other money back with nothing to show for it? I'm tired of talking about it because it's not going to help anything. What can they do?
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RE: Advice to a married couple - 10/1/2008 8:15:33 PM
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creationtalk
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You might want to ask the mods to move this thread to the finance forum.
it sounds like there is either gambling or drugs involved...or another woman.
If she has asked him what is going on and/or tried to get him to quit borrowing money, then she may have to go beyond him to protect herself
Not sure this is "Godly" or Biblical advice...but the wife may want to separate the finances as much as possible. Get her own accounts that he cannot touch and put her wages into that account. She may also want to consult a lawyer about the way forward. She may need to notify all creditors that she will not be responsible for any future loans--she need to get her name off all joint credit cards and make sure that creditors know that she will not be responsible for future loans--if it's possible. In some states she can let people/creditors know and then no longer be liable. In other states, as long as she is married to him, she will be responsible for any debt he creates while they are married, even if they are separated and living apart.
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RE: Advice to a married couple - 10/2/2008 11:26:26 AM
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pbaribeault
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quote:
Now the husband goes and sets up with a credit counseling agency to take $300 out of the household each month. I'm unclear, but doesn't this mean that he's now gotten a debt consolidation loan and is making responsible monthly payments ($300 per month) in order to get out of his debt? If this is the case, presumably the wife is simply resenting that she now has to live on less, monthly, (for a good long time) in order to pay off his irresponsible spending earlier in life.
If this is the case, the answer is forgiveness -- not really financial advice at all. In marraiage we have grace, which means living with the fall-out of our beloved's mistakes, without resentment, even when they make our lives somewhat miserable. Resentment is going to hurt these people far more than issues of money alone. She can live with less in grace and peace, now that he is making the responsible choice to get out of their debt.
Also, to put the shoe on the other foot, if she had been willing to trim her financial needs within the marriage by something as simple as $50 per month for the last 12 years, there would have been enough money to do what the man wanted to do without going into debt. Just because she spent the 'real' money and he spent the borrowed money does not mean that he is solely responsible for the way the household has been living beyond its collective income.
The good news is that $7500 at $300 per month shouldn't take them longer than 2 and a half or 3 years, if they live within their limits for that time... then they will be both out of debt and much wiser.
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RE: Advice to a married couple - 10/2/2008 12:18:16 PM
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Row1
Posts: 251
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Biblical:
These two are one, by marriage. Matthew 19:6 and etc.
Money is beign spent foolishly,
Proverbs 21:20: in the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil, but a foolish man devours all he has;
And they are in debt: not a Biblical strategy for handling money: Proverbs 22:7.
None of this means anything if they are not intersted in drawing upon the real-world guidance that God has given us for our rel-world life and real-world problems. If they just like being Christians so they can socialize at Church, or get business referrals, or feel self-righteous and superior to others, or to 'fit in' socially in our gnerally Christian population, then any of this Biblical basis about real-world things and guidance in real-world, everyday issues will fall on deaf ears.
You could look at this bit of info and suggest that the couple should be planning and spending money as a team. Having one budget, including a portion of monthly income for each to have spending money/pocket money, would be a realistic, workable, Biblically based plan to have them get out of this problem.
The problem is that the one hand does not know what the other hand is doing.
My wife and I, however, take this seriously. In the past couple of years, we have really worked on this. When a financial issue comes up (we recently had to replace a fence), we just look at our budget, our savings, and we formulate a plan. I might suggest everything, and she agrees, or she might ask to do one thing and I agree, or we might each suggest where to cut money from one place in order to meet the financial desire or challenge in another budget category.
But we are literally on the same page (actually, the budget is really specific and is two pages). We are also on the same page Biblically, i.e., yoked to the same yoke.
So, if I want to indulge myself with some purchase, I don't just go borrow the money (anymore). This has been a big change in my life. I used to just buy the books or CDs I was motivated to 'buy' -- actually I almost always just charged them. Now, I buy if it fits in my allotment of spending money.
I do this as part of what I do to achieve a peaceful and stable family life, in my role as the head of the household, evn though it is almost all 'my money' to do what I want with.
so, if they are seriously interested in living their lives in a biblical way, I would sugget that they work together to have one monthly, written budget - including some portion for 'pocket money' whether it be $2 or $200 depending upon their income and resoruces and goals, and also that the budget include a line to pay down all current debt.
We follow the Dave Ramsey style, but however it works for them, as long as they are workign together and actually have a budget, versus who can claim the limited money first, in an unfair manner (like charging it before it is earned, so it is committed/spent before earned).
If this is recent, the guy could have some other issues, too - these don't mean anything I have said needs to be chcuked out th ewindow - just more issues to address- he could feel 'entitled' at this point in his life; he could be depressed or greatly anxious. He could be getting more impulsive because Alzheimer's is affecting him. And yes he could be getting foolsih due to a growing problem with alcohol, or yes an affair, gambling, etc.
If one of these addiction type problems is involved, it is likely that he will REALLY resisit ANY measures to put money down on paper and plan it -- that will actually be the addiction fighting for its own survival (by living in the dark, in secret) by avoiding the light of day. The addiction will try to change the focus to blame the woman: don't nag, you aren't perfect yourself, this is not your role as wife, titfortat arguments, belligerence, etc.
If so, then this possible addiction is gonna need to be recognized, along wit the budgeting.
Either way: avoiding debt and planning money management needs to be done together, since they are 'one' anyway. Additionally, it is kind of a grey area about specifics of what it means to be the leader of the household, but the general Biblical philosophy is truly that the leader is the servant, and acts accordingly. There were no chanrge cards, or ski obats, back in the Biblical days, so it is impossible to directly fight some arguments. Nonetheless, the principles are there.
i wrote a bunch, but it is really a simple message to share: they need to manage money together, hopefully thru a written budget. If he really fights it, suspect some real strong problem could be involved.
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RE: Advice to a married couple - 10/2/2008 9:05:04 PM
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April75
Posts: 253
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Well yeah this sounds good. But what happens is he finds a way to lower the bills he has and then creates more. They've already consolidated his bills into a loan on a house she had before she married him. He has also decided to apply for college so that he can get the excess of the loans. He keeps saying he has cancelled his application for school but she has found out differently. It's like everything is a lie with him. Some things sound good but turn out to be totally different. This isn't the first time he has gotten out of debt. This is like the 3rd time. It's not as simple as her trimming money and him spending. He simply has nothing to show for what he spent. He didn't buy anything. I think it's something behind the money thing. He use to be a gambler years ago but she has found no proof of it now. Just unaccounted for money gone. It's not like he wanted money to do anything with. The thing is he makes good money and has excess to spend but he will get caught up in money circle's until all of his paycheck is gone plus he accumulates more bills. There are no new cars, motorcycles, TV's, games or whatever it is you may think. The money is gone he didn't buy anything with the money. He didn't go on any trips there is nothing to show for the money.
Thanks for the great advice I wish it was so simple for them. She may suggest something he may agree and then he doesn't follow through. He decided to let his paycheck come to her bank account about a year ago so that she could pay all the bills first but he went and got more bills. They are living tight right now because of his bills, because he is off a few months during the summer. Things have come up like the car he drives isn't working. It had just been fixed from a wreck he had. She had to decide whether to fix the car versus send the payment to the debt counseling agency. Once the money started going to that account he started pressuring saying I owe people, I have people on my back about money. He was borrowing from neighbors and everything. Also the church. It's a small community he grew up in. Most people like him but don't know about his money problems so they are more than willing to give to him. Everyone is whispering talking about how they don't have enough money but they don't understand he's spending it all. A lot of these people are his family.
I do know they are married and both people are to help each other but why should she retire after 30 years and have to go back to work fulltime just to spend both of her checks to bail him out continously. Somehow I blame part of her because it seems she is letting this happen and just talking about it. I can't stand it. These are both christians. Both ministers. He just can't seem to get it together with this and she can't seem to get out of looking and being worried over this all the time. this is really stressing her out.
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RE: Advice to a married couple - 10/3/2008 8:25:57 AM
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creationtalk
Posts: 703
Joined: 6/9/2005
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As I said before, this sounds like a gambling problem. And if this person has a history of gambling, it is unlikely to go away. Gambling addition recovery has a lower success-rate than cocaine and alcohol addiction. If she's not finding evidence of it, then it could mean that he's just better at hiding it. Do they have a computer or access to one (at a library, or similar)? There is internet gambling easily available anywhere. Are there large blocks of time when he is out and she doesn't know where? Do they live in an area where there is legal gambling within driving distance?
I'm speaking from experience here. I was married to a gambler. He would promise me that he would not gamble, and as long as we were home, he usually didn't. But his job would send him somewhere...and he would gamble away the rent, food, utilities and car payment. Sometimes in a single evening. After he lost his job, I had to work more and wasn't around much. He didn't work and wouldn't do anything on the farm. I was told later that he often drove off while I was gone and was gone for hours. I was left with a mountain of debt--lost our home and when that was over, could have sold everything left TWICE and still owed money. It's been 15 years and I'm still paying back that debt, and will be for many years to come.
If he is a gambler, putting a limit on his "spending" will not work. If she says "NO" to the money, he will get it from another place. He may go behind her back and borrow money or take it out of her accounts. Credit card applications come in the mail all the time...he could fill them out and borrow money on them without ever telling her.
Your friend needs to get the financial records pulled as far back as possible on the time period that this has been happening. She needs to get an idea of how much money is going out every month or what ever that cannot be accounted for. Some of the money might be for snacks, etc things legitimately bought with cash but not accounted. However, depending on how large the unaccounted sums are, it may be possible to get a feel for how much money is really being "lost". She also needs to pull a credit report in BOTH their names from all the credit reporting agencies and see if there are any credit cards or other loans on these records of which she has no knowledge--and how much is owed on them. If he is gambling on money borrowed by friends, it won't show up on a credit report. She also needs to do some quiet checking to find out how many friends and family members he has borrowed from--how much and how often. And if there is any way to do so without betraying her husband, she needs to quietly suggest that they STOP loaning money to him. I am not a lawyer and laws vary from state to state anyway, so I suggest that your friend also speak with a lawyer about legal ways she can protect herself from her husband's problems--what ever they may be.
Protecting herself financially has nothing to do with forgiveness. Trust is earned, it is not given. From what has been reported here, admittedly second-hand and from one party, it does not sound like the husband can be trusted with the money. The wife needs full disclosure so that she can make sound decisions.
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