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Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/20/2008 12:44:25 AM
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grace50
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I am aware of the Abrahamic Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant, and the covenant God made with Noah. I have heard of a Davidic Covenant. I would like to know if this is different than the covenant with Abraham and Moses. Also where can I find scripture that references it.
Thanks.
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/20/2008 10:23:54 AM
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bob97
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quote:
The Davidic Covenant refers to God’s promises to David through Nathan the prophet and is found in 2 Samuel 7 and later summarized in 1 Chronicles 17:11-14 and 2 Chronicles 6:16. This is an unconditional covenant made between God and David through which God promises David and Israel that the Messiah (Jesus Christ) would come from the lineage of David and the tribe of Judah and would establish a kingdom that would endure forever (2 Samuel 7:10-13). The Davidic Covenant is unconditional because God does not place any conditions of obedience upon its fulfillment. The surety of the promises made rests solely on God’s faithfulness and does not depend at all on David or Israel’s obedience.
Bob
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/20/2008 11:13:08 AM
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drmark
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Hey, Bob, since grace50 is a new poster, why not share your reference source so s/he can be better informed in the future. Welcome to the Forums, grace50!
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/20/2008 2:34:16 PM
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bob97
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Sorry drmark...I didn't give a reference because I didn't remember who it was from. The information is spot on and correct but it wasn't mine.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/20/2008 2:49:08 PM
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drmark
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No problem, here is what i found from a quick google of the first sentence:
What is the Davidic Covenant?
This article references the Moody Handbook of Theology but I have no idea how much they may have copied from it.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/20/2008 5:15:34 PM
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grace50
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Thank you both for your help. I am new to the forums and a new person in Christ. The scriptural references you sent Bob were right on and exactly what I needed. There is so much to learn...
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/20/2008 7:50:51 PM
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cog41
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quote:
This article references the Moody Handbook of Theology but I have no idea how much they may have copied from it.
A great source.
Highly recommend it.
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/23/2008 7:20:52 PM
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cwb
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The differences between all 8 covenants are pretty distinct...
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/23/2008 9:56:58 PM
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drmark
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quote:
The differences between all 8 covenants are pretty distinct... Well, I don't know exactly what "8 covenants" you're referring to, but they're not so distinct that they can't fall into two basic categories of promise. The unconditional covenant is referred to as the "Royal Grant" and the conditional covenant as "Suzerain-vassal.
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/24/2008 4:24:47 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The differences between all 8 covenants are pretty distinct... Well, I don't know exactly what "8 covenants" you're referring to, but they're not so distinct that they can't fall into two basic categories of promise. The unconditional covenant is referred to as the "Royal Grant" and the conditional covenant as "Suzerain-vassal.
The promises of Adonai have been divided up in many ways by many different people for various reasons. It is also possible to see them all as merely subsections of the one covenant which is enbodied in Adonai Himself.
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/25/2008 10:24:37 PM
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cwb
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The differences between all 8 covenants are pretty distinct... Well, I don't know exactly what "8 covenants" you're referring to, but they're not so distinct that they can't fall into two basic categories of promise. The unconditional covenant is referred to as the "Royal Grant" and the conditional covenant as "Suzerain-vassal.
Not a problem - I'll let on:
Edenic, Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Palestinian, Davidic, New.
Praise the Lord man!
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We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/26/2008 8:09:53 AM
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DaveW
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I am unfamiliar with #1 on your list, and the title you use for #6 is a post-biblical term. (it was an insult to the Jewish people coined by Rome in the mid 2nd century)
I am only aware of 6 covenants, in chronological order:
1) Adamic
2) Noahic
3) Abrahamic
**renewed with Isaac
**renewed with Jacob/Israel
4) Mosaic (with side Aaronic covenant)
5) Davidic
**renewed with Solomon
6) New Covenant
< Message edited by DaveW -- 9/26/2008 8:21:37 AM >
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/26/2008 8:33:20 AM
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drmark
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Your list matches up better with the NIV Study Bible list, Dave. They cite two Abrahamic covenants (one unconditional and one conditional) and a Phinehas Covenant (Num 25:10-13).
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/26/2008 12:14:24 PM
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DaveW
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THe Abrahamic covenant had different sections but was still part of the same overall agreement. That is what a covenant is - the agreement itself and not necessarily the stipulations.
The "Phinehas covenant" was a renewal of the side covenant with Aaron. That is a part of the Mosaic covenant.
"My covenant of peace."
If you seperate it out, then the Aaronic/Phinehas covenant of the levitical priesthood is still in effect. There is no indication anywhere in scripture that that specific agreement was nullified.
Hebrews says that the Mosaic covenant was in the process of fading away as of the writing of that epistle.
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Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/26/2008 3:52:38 PM
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Bluethread
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What is called the "Mosaic covenant" could very well be a compilation and clarification of the previous covenants. The "Davidic covenant" can also be seen as a clarification of the previous covenants, filling in some of the blanks in Ha Torah, regarding a king and a place I will choose. Thus, we have one covenant that is renewed as it is written on our hearts.
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/27/2008 12:58:59 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Thus, we have one covenant that is renewed as it is written on our hearts. In this (over)simplified version would you consider the "one covenant that is renewed" to be conditional or unconditional?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/27/2008 1:58:44 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Thus, we have one covenant that is renewed as it is written on our hearts. In this (over)simplified version would you consider the "one covenant that is renewed" to be conditional or unconditional?
Some aspects are conditional, some are unconditional and some could be seen as either one, depending on ones prospective. As with anything, one can categorize them in various ways in an attempt understand them better. However, we need to understand that any categorization of the Scriptures is conjecture. Therefore, to draw conclusions from those categories is to practice rabbinics. Now, there isn't necessarily anything wrong with rabbinics, as long as it is not elevated to the level of Scripture.
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/29/2008 9:20:28 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Thus, we have one covenant that is renewed as it is written on our hearts. But that is clearly not the peshat of Hebrews 8:13:
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
If Rashi were to comment on this passage he would NEVER say they were both the same covenant.
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Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 9/29/2008 4:09:34 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Thus, we have one covenant that is renewed as it is written on our hearts. But that is clearly not the peshat of Hebrews 8:13:
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
If Rashi were to comment on this passage he would NEVER say they were both the same covenant.
If I am not mistaken the word "covenant" is not in the greek texts, but was added by those who wish to read the verse that way. Paul is refering to the priesthood in this section of Hebrews. Therefore, it is possible He is comparing the Malchezedeck priesthood to the corrupted version of the Levitical priesthood of the time and anticipating the distruction of the Temple.
Regarding Rashi, rabbinics may be valuable for background and historical context. However, they are not Scripture and are no more infallible than Leuther or Calvin.
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 10/1/2008 12:25:08 PM
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DaveW
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While not in that specific verse, "new" kainos is and ties it back to verse 8 and the phrase kainos diatheke - new covenant.
Diatheke also appears in verses 9 and 10, so it is a pretty safe bet that "new" refers to the covenant. Try reading the english out loud and leave 'covenant' out of v 13, It still seems to fit the statement - that covenant would be understood.
Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." In that He says, "new," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
My comment on Rashi was on his reputation as "King of Peshat" - that one must take the plain meaning of scriptural text as paramount. It was not to say he himself was inspired or infallable.
< Message edited by DaveW -- 10/1/2008 12:32:34 PM >
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 10/2/2008 4:31:43 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
While not in that specific verse, "new" kainos is and ties it back to verse 8 and the phrase kainos diatheke - new covenant.
Diatheke also appears in verses 9 and 10, so it is a pretty safe bet that "new" refers to the covenant. Try reading the english out loud and leave 'covenant' out of v 13, It still seems to fit the statement - that covenant would be understood.
Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." In that He says, "new," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
My comment on Rashi was on his reputation as "King of Peshat" - that one must take the plain meaning of scriptural text as paramount. It was not to say he himself was inspired or infallable.
6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first, no place would have been sought for another.
In verse six ministry is the subject and covenant is part of a comparative clause. By making a comparision, it is presumed that "new" covenant is superior to the "old" covenant. I see this "new/old" as a literary tool that the Creator used to differentiate between the ways in which the covenant was communicated. In fact, many have presented the idea that the term might be better translated as renewed rather than new.
However, back to the main point, the verses that follow are an elaberation of this comparison, but the main point is the priesthood. He then continues the comparison in chapter 9 pointing out the stipulations related to the preisthood and in verse 9:11 he then ties it back to The Messiah.
Now, these chapters do go back and forth between the terms preisthood and covenant. Is the entire Covenant the preisthood. No, the preisthood is part of the covenant. This is consistant with my view of the term covenant. It can be used as the entire Covenant or as certain stipulations thereof. How one determines how the term is being used is dependant on the context.
Regarding the principle of the simplest meaning being the best, which you attribute to Rashi, I would say, Paul does not write in a simple fashion. In fact, it is nearly possible to translate the entire epistle of Hebrews as one sentence. Therefore, it is very difficult to draw many conclusions regarding what Paul means by a word or phrase without reading the larger context, if not the entire epistle.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 10/3/2008 6:58:44 AM
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DaveW
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As our rabbi (who is a retired trial lawyer) has pointed out, legally the covenant is the agreement itself apart from the stipulations. He has researched the biblical understanding of 'covenant' as well as the rabbinic understanding of it in the first century and concluded that it is the same: the covenant is the agreement itself apart from the stipulations.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Abrahamic covenant & Davidic covenant - 10/3/2008 12:43:08 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
As our rabbi (who is a retired trial lawyer) has pointed out, legally the covenant is the agreement itself apart from the stipulations. He has researched the biblical understanding of 'covenant' as well as the rabbinic understanding of it in the first century and concluded that it is the same: the covenant is the agreement itself apart from the stipulations.
So, every covenant, as defined by the creator, is an isolated agreement that is not effected by any other agreement? Now, I can understand how that might be the case in the english common law tradition. However, how do we know this is what the Creator intended. Also, when the Creator spoke to Adam, Noah and David, did He say he was making a covenant as your Rabbi defines it?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/3/2008 12:49:48 PM >
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