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A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts....&qu... - 11/25/2008 4:55:09 PM
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SomeFineDay
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I did not want to derail the thread, so I will just ask my question quickly here. Quickly, if the Holy Spirit does not convict, why do we feel so horrible when we sin, and so much better when we repent and confess? Is the conviction from God so we will be more like his children more submissive to doing what he wills? It could have been answered in the thread, but I am not sure, sorry if it was and I missed it.
I am not talking about false guilt, but the awful feeling when we have done something wrong, and that we know in unequivocally against God's rules.
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/25/2008 5:25:09 PM
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atruefaith
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The Holy Spirit convicts believers. 2 Cor. 7 affirms it.
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/25/2008 5:43:18 PM
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SonInMe1
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Coviction form the Holy Spirit is God directing us back to Him in love, but with discipline.
Guilt and shame come from satan who wishes us to be seperate from God.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/25/2008 5:50:45 PM
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atruefaith
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quote:
Guilt and shame come from satan who wishes us to be seperate from God.
So how do you reconcile David writing Psalm 51, asking God to take away his blood guiltiness and not to blot out his name from the Book of Life, after he had been told by Nathan that his sin had been forgiven and taken away (2 Sam. 12)
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/25/2008 5:56:18 PM
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jn1010lf
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Hello SomeFineDay
I think you already answered your question. The answer is yes, the Holy Spirit does convict. I just read an article about a renowned abortionist who perormed thousands of abortions. He starte having horrible haunting dreams about the babies hie aborted. He is now an ardent pro life advocate. Now that is Holy Spirit conviction.
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/25/2008 10:50:10 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SomeFineDay
I did not want to derail the thread, so I will just ask my question quickly here. Quickly, if the Holy Spirit does not convict, why do we feel so horrible when we sin, and so much better when we repent and confess? Is the conviction from God so we will be more like his children more submissive to doing what he wills? It could have been answered in the thread, but I am not sure, sorry if it was and I missed it.
I am not talking about false guilt, but the awful feeling when we have done something wrong, and that we know in unequivocally against God's rules.
I'm almost hesitant to get started on this topic---but here I go.
I highlighted one statement you made.
Have you ever considered that it is your pride that is wounded and that is what feels so horrible?
Have you ever thought that it is just another layer of sin, self love, not really believing what you confess to be true, that no good thing dwells in you?
And the confession and repentance can be another prideful act in which we make it all right, make ourselves feel better, 'oh, aren't I good, I see my sin' kind of attitude?
I'm just throwing these questions out for us to ponder. Our hearts are deceitful. So perhaps what we 'think' is conviction and repentance is just another selfloving, prideful act? What do you think?
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/26/2008 6:47:23 AM
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SomeFineDay
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I am not sure it is pride because in most cases we would be very happy to make excuses for the way that we have lived and go about out merry way. I know I would. Oh yeah, I'll say it's really ok that I did that because they did this to me, and that would be enough for me. It is the (Holy Spirit?), (conviction?) that causes me to know that excuses won't work and that what I did was wrong.
Of course there is the point that you made that sometimes feeling guilty makes us feel like we are some way punishing ourselves and that the relief of guilt when we say I feel guilty but we will confess to God and get it taken away. Everything will be ok we think as we go through this cycle. That is us manufacturing something which also in a way trying to escape real conviction. We do something wrong, and we are mature enough Christians to not try to excuse it away, so we make up our own penance of guilty/conviction/repentance and go about our merry way.
But, I think that even given the about two paragraphs there is something intrinsic in the way that we are set up once born again that transends anything we could create on our own. That I think is the Holy Spirit. Now, the question then would be, is it He who is making so unhappy, or even when I think of it not even that, helping us see our actions as they really are, and we are very unhappy just because we do have a new standard for our behavior/thoughts/being.
I don't know if it is unhappiness/conviction most of the time for me (and I don't know how others experience it) is is more of an internal compass/dialogue/early warning system. It can make me feeling profoundly uncomfortable, but the discomfort is hand in hand with more of the internal compass/dialogue/warning system.
I always take the above the be the Holy Spirit, but that whole long thread go me to thinking and I am curious what others think.
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/26/2008 7:55:02 AM
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deliveredarling
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I have been thinking a lot about this since the other thread was posted.Here are some questions I came up with. Non-believers can feel just as bad about doing something wrong as believers can. We know that non-believers do not have the HS indwelling. Neither do small children, so what is it that makes them turn from their wrong ways?
Children are what really through me for a loop. The way that they can truly comprehend that they have hurt another's feelings or know that stealing is wrong, to the point that they will display a repentant heart, i.e., not steal again. It brings me to this verse:
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Now having seen that, it seems that all humans are born with the instinct of God, so that none will have an excuse when judgment comes. Is this what convicts the non-believer and believer alike.
It seems to me that it is God that convicts all man, resulting in repentance (for some, those that embrace it, but not all will...)
I also wonder if this conviction is not being portrayed in the correct fashion and the meaning is being lost. The other thread deemed it as a lack of belief. I don't disbelieve anything when I confess my sins to God and repent. I believe that I have already been forgiven. However, it is MY recognition of my sinful behavior that God has shown me through the conviction. If I don't know something is wrong, why would I confess it and ask God to strengthen me in that area? Wouldn't the unrecognized sin continue to separate me from Him?
I could go on but I digress until more comes to light. 
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/26/2008 8:07:08 AM
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buckifn
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Conviction and emotions are two different things. The Bible clearly says the heart is deceitful above all things....so what we 'feel" may or may not have anything to do with sin being in our lives...
The Holy Spirit cannot be deceived.
The best advice I can give you is this- the more you pray, read God's Word, ASK the Holy Spirit to lead, guide, and direct you, and the more you learn to follow His leading the more truth you will see and the more you learn to trust the Holy Spirit's guidance and NOT YOUR FEELINGS alone.
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/26/2008 8:48:01 AM
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SomeFineDay
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I have been thinking a lot about this since the other thread was posted.Here are some questions I came up with. Non-believers can feel just as bad about doing something wrong as believers can. We know that non-believers do not have the HS indwelling. Neither do small children, so what is it that makes them turn from their wrong ways?
Children are what really through me for a loop. The way that they can truly comprehend that they have hurt another's feelings or know that stealing is wrong, to the point that they will display a repentant heart, i.e., not steal again. It brings me to this verse:
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Now having seen that, it seems that all humans are born with the instinct of God, so that none will have an excuse when judgment comes. Is this what convicts the non-believer and believer alike.
It seems to me that it is God that convicts all man, resulting in repentance (for some, those that embrace it, but not all will...)
I also wonder if this conviction is not being portrayed in the correct fashion and the meaning is being lost. The other thread deemed it as a lack of belief. I don't disbelieve anything when I confess my sins to God and repent. I believe that I have already been forgiven. However, it is MY recognition of my sinful behavior that God has shown me through the conviction. If I don't know something is wrong, why would I confess it and ask God to strengthen me in that area? Wouldn't the unrecognized sin continue to separate me from Him?
I could go on but I digress until more comes to light.
I guess I am going to write something that is unconventional, but also supported by Christian thought from Justin Martyr on,
Total depravity, I don't go for, I think that we are made by God, in Gods image, to know God. That is our function, we were made to be able to do it. Original sin might separate, but we still have the make up. God tells all in the bible form Cain on we do have the ability to choose good...else why would he punish when we choose evil. "Why is your countanace fallen? If you choose good will not you be accepted", all the non-jewish people in the OT who repented and were forgiven, Romans saying that all have God's rules written in their heart.
Course that leads to another enormous discussion, but that can be another thread.
So, why wouldn't God convict non-Christians beyond what is necessary to lead to salvation? Another question for another thread as well. Briefly I would say he does for reasons of the top paragraph I wrote.
However, I think when we became Christians we made an agreement with God and that agreement in what he is enforcing by conviction. I don't think what we feel is entirely guilt originating from insides ourselves, I think it comes from something beyond ourselves. It does feel different from before, thats what the born again expression comes from.
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/26/2008 9:04:11 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
However, I think when we became Christians we made an agreement with God and that agreement in what he is enforcing by conviction.
You had the same thought as me I was just sitting and thinking some more and thought, " Isn't repentance coming to the knowledge that we agree with God that this particular sin (whatever it may be) needs to be changed?".
We come in agreement with Him about our entire state upon salvation, however being in this world, we need a constant reminder that God is the answer we must seek. Knowing it in our heads is not enough for the flesh, that's why there is the constant battle. We, as Christians all have the ability to put on our armor, but for those who are like me, the world puts dings in it from time to time. God is the One who reminds me to keep it sturdy by prayer and focusing on His Word.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/26/2008 9:26:22 AM
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d4nnyb0y02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SomeFineDay
I did not want to derail the thread, so I will just ask my question quickly here. Quickly, if the Holy Spirit does not convict, why do we feel so horrible when we sin, and so much better when we repent and confess? Is the conviction from God so we will be more like his children more submissive to doing what he wills? It could have been answered in the thread, but I am not sure, sorry if it was and I missed it.
I am not talking about false guilt, but the awful feeling when we have done something wrong, and that we know in unequivocally against God's rules.
The Holy Spirit does convict... but John tells us that if our HEARTS condemn us, God is greater than our heart (1 John 3:20). Clearly, this is not the holy spirit, yet, there are many people who FEEL HORRIBLE when they sin. It is so frustrating to see those who have had their sins WASHED AWAY and CLEANSED by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB who TAKES AWAY OUR SINS, feeling horrible when they sin. Because as John also tells us... if we sin... we have and ADVOCATE who LIVES to MAKE INTERCESION FOR US, day and night (1 John 2:1).
The Holy Spirit does convict us, but it can be determined from scripture that the Holy Spirit is not going to condemn us. We are saved, past, present, and future -- all forgiven. We are not subject to the law, but to grace. The goal of the Holy Spirit isn't to make us FEEL HORRIBLE... as I believe this is teetering on condemnation (which the Holy Spirit does not do). The Holy Spirit tells us we are FORGIVEN IN CHRIST and proclaims GRACE TO THE BELIEVERS because the Holy Spirit comes He will POINT US TO CHRIST and TESTIFY OF CHRIST, which speaks of FORGIVENESS APART FROM WORKS (John 15:26).
Conviction and FEELING HORRIBLE I think are two different things... and I do not believe it is God's goal to make us feel horrible about our sin. Not to condemn us, but to convict us in the sense that He will instruct, direct, correct, and even rebuke us from walking in sin. But condemn, the Holy Spirit does not. If you feel condemned when you sin, you must know that if your heart condemns you, that God is GREATER THAN YOUR HEART.
< Message edited by d4nnyb0y02 -- 11/26/2008 9:41:28 AM >
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/26/2008 10:34:27 AM
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deliveredarling
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What I see happening here is, people who hear the term conviction, automatically assume that condemnation comes with it. That's not always the case though. I can see how the accuser comes in and cause guilt, shame and blame. God comes in and corrects us with realization. There is a big difference between condemnation and correction.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/26/2008 11:04:22 AM
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LivingParadox
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Conviction from the Holy Spirit is a gift. In fact, it is once we receive the Holy Spirit that God goes to work convicting us. Even unbelievers have a sense of God and "right and wrong" ....you don't have to be a Christian to understand throughout all cultures that murder is wrong, adultry is wrong, etc.
Whether Christian or non-Christian, without Christ, we all stand condemned by our own sinfulness to stand before a holy God. It is IN Christ, we are no longer condemned. But santification (becoming like Christ) requires us to know our depravity so we can start the "becoming part". Once in Christ we get both the eyes to see ourselves as we truly are BOTH in Christ and without Christ.
It's like we all start as beautiful piece of furniture -- crafted with great detail and some flaws that actually add to the character of the piece -- but after years of use, misuse, neglect, the item appears to be pretty useless until someone reconizes the antique and claims it. To make this "antique" beautiful again it require taking off the layers off to restore it. That is where "conviction" IMO comes into play.
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/26/2008 11:18:07 AM
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pneil
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One thing to throw out,
If you've sinned, but have asked for forgiveness, and done everything you need
to do (read: feel called to do to) correct the situation and are still being "reminded"
of that sin and feel bad about it, the voice your're hearing isn't the Holy Spirit.
The enemy will whisper in your ear reminding you of all of the "stuff" that you've
been fogiven for. If he can use that and make you feel worthless and powerless,
he has taken you off the playing field and you are no longer a threat to his plans.
The enemy lies. If he can lie to you and limit your effectiveness in the Kingdom, He
will.
Look at the thing you're being reminded of. If you've asked fo forgiveness and
done you're best to correct the situation. Move on. Weigh the "internal" criticism
that's surfacing and if it's something God is done with, you should be done with it
too.
Pneil
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/26/2008 11:20:51 AM
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pneil
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On that Note... John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
Pneil
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/26/2008 11:43:10 AM
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LivingParadox
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Once again, that is differentiating between conviction and false guilt. If you've corrected with God's prompting and there is nothing more you can do then that is false guilt. Conviction is about reconizing our state and through the prompting of the Holy Spirit, correcting what we are convicted.
None can get a "do-over" for sins that's why we have to be forgiven of them. Conviction is about current sin.
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/26/2008 1:20:35 PM
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atruefaith
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quote:
What I see happening here is, people who hear the term conviction, automatically assume that condemnation comes with it. That's not always the case though. I can see how the accuser comes in and cause guilt, shame and blame. God comes in and corrects us with realization. There is a big difference between condemnation and correction.
Bingo! Bingo! Bingo!
And this is what is so maddening in dealing with UR on this issue on the other thread because he doesn’t see that the word convict can have multiple meanings in our language depending on how you use the word. He’s locked in on the legal sense of the word, but there are other meanings and the Scriptures even use different meanings of the word depending on how it is translated from the original Greek and Hebrew. What’s most frustrating is that UR is refusing to define his terms...I’ve even caught him dancing back and forth between meanings of the word just keep his argument alive.
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A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/26/2008 1:22:33 PM
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atruefaith
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quote:
Once again, that is differentiating between conviction and false guilt. If you've corrected with God's prompting and there is nothing more you can do then that is false guilt. Conviction is about reconizing our state and through the prompting of the Holy Spirit, correcting what we are convicted.
And keep in mind there is difference between self-condemnation, external condemnation (such as a judge condemning you) and a combination of both.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/26/2008 1:36:23 PM
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pneil
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Websters lists the following for conviction:
1: the act or process of convicting of a crime especially in a court of law
2 a: the act of convincing a person of error or of compelling the admission of a truth b: the state of being convinced of error or compelled to admit the truth
3 a: a strong persuasion or belief b: the state of being convinced
I believe that the work of the Holy Spirit resides in 2 and 3, even though 1 is
the most common usage in our culture today. We're made in God's image,
when faced with the truth about our actions and situation, the actual condition
and the source of the problem is readily apparent.
Pneil
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 11/26/2008 3:17:49 PM
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d4nnyb0y02
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quote:
You do know I can see you, don't you?
Peace
Note to self: Wearing camoflage while posting has no effect on the visibility of posts.
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 12/1/2008 2:29:26 PM
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atruefaith
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quote:
You do know I can see you, don't you?
I know you can see posts. As for another kind of seeing...I have my doubts.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: A question on the "The Holy Spirit Convicts...... - 12/1/2008 7:29:36 PM
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Dancre
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Holy Spirit does convict us of sins. That's in the Word.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SomeFineDay
I did not want to derail the thread, so I will just ask my question quickly here. Quickly, if the Holy Spirit does not convict, why do we feel so horrible when we sin, and so much better when we repent and confess? Is the conviction from God so we will be more like his children more submissive to doing what he wills? It could have been answered in the thread, but I am not sure, sorry if it was and I missed it.
I am not talking about false guilt, but the awful feeling when we have done something wrong, and that we know in unequivocally against God's rules.
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